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Just wanted to get some thoughts and opinions on steroid use. When is it okay to use them, if ever? Honestly, even though I've gained muscle in the past few years while working out, it's a very gradual and slow gain. I've been kind of toying with the idea of using them for a long time to help with this process, but I'm not sure the results are worth the risks. Obviously, I have not decided to use them. Soooo feedback, anyone?

DONT DO IT!!!. One of my friend(with sexual benefit) was a body builder. He told me during the peak of his career he depend solely on steroids to get big and win contest. This guy say that taking steroid are so addictive that as soon as he got money he will buy more , inject it at his chest and other body part just to get big. The closer to the contest date , the more he injected the stuff. He was constanly broke. To make a matter worst he start having erection problem for a period of six months, to the point his wife start considering divorce. What that he got, just a few worthless trophy
and who know what else damages to his internal organ.

As soon as he stop taking it, he start to be normal size and now just a regular overweight guys.It just not worth it.

blue here is my advice. if you are seriously thinking about it then do it the right way. go to a doctor. preferably a gay one. he wlll be more understanding and receptive as to your reasons for wanting to do a cycle. also he should perform the necessary blood work to make sure that your liver functions are normal and that they stay that way throughout your cycle. he will also monitor your estrogen level as well as test it at the beginning. this eliminates an over dosage of testosterone that might lead to 'roid rage' which in reality is just PMS in men. their estrogen level is high to begin with and the extra estrogen their body creates from taking the steroids just elevates that to a higher level than needed.

Well, here comes the misinformation.

There is a multitude of good information on AAS. I won't and can't cover it all here.

Here's a real short version: Not the DEA, AMA, NJEM, ACS, AHA, US Army...not one organization...recommended that AAS be controlled. In fact, they all recommended that the remain over the counter, or "legend" drugs at most. That's from the folks in the know.

There has never been a SINGLE death attributable to AAS.

The US ARMY has studied this since the 40's and has found only 7 cases where AAS might have been a secondary cause, and not a SINGLE case where there were a primary cause.

Non C-17 (injectables for the most part) are NOT toxic, at nearly ANY LEVEL. Testosterone is naturally occurring, and hence is not toxic to your system without levels approaching 5000mg per week. 5 to 10 per day would be typical and even the biggest of juiceheads rarely does more than 2000mg, and most folks do around 700mg a week.

C17 modded orals can be hepa-toxic at high levels, but, not as much as common pain relievers. Apples to apples.

Roid rage is media fluff. In fact, any geriatric physician can tell you that androgens are mood elevating. Most users would tell you the same thing. The "roid rage" thing was invented as court defense for dumbasses.

Steroids are those hormones soluble in fats. Women use estrogen for decades to their benefit.

Your natural testosterone starts declining around 28. As an important part of anti-aging AAS therapy should begin about that time. It will prevent you from several forms of cancer, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, osteoporosis, preserve your lean muscle, heighten your sexual function, lower your BP, lower your cholesterol, and protect your heart, as well as elevate your mood.

Study after study after study has been done on this and while steroids will always lower cholesterol (it's part of how they work), mortality among heavy steroid users is always less, than a sedentary population. UNT recently did just such a study. What they found is that the heavy users actually have a LOWER mortality than regular people. Suprised? I'm not. It only makes sense that maintaining a healthy lifestyle along the hormones to back it up would lead to lower morality.

The protocol of choice for the sickest of the sick, is an will likely remain to be for some time yet, AAS. Burns, diabetes, HIV, and most forms of cancer.

Studies have recently been done that show cholesterol isn't as good an indicator of mortality as visceral vs. non-visceral fat. Considering that several BILLION dollars are being made annually on anti-cholesterol pills (HIGHLY hepa-toxic).

Any negative effects (low sperm count, HPTA suppression) are transitory. (Male birth control)

My doctor is a good one, and said nothing destroys your liver and muscle faster than statins (anti-cholesterol pill), and, in fact, threw them in the trash.

Anti-aging is fast becoming a huge business with grossly over inflated prices. E.g., androgel for $299.00 a month with less raw material than just a couple of shots.

As someone who has been lifting weights for 33 years, and been an elite athlete almost all of my adult life, I'd highly recommend a fair look at these powerful technologies. Like a good running shoe, a light bike, a sleek suit, stimulants, whatever the technology might be, technology plays a part across the board in sports; has for centuries; will be continue to do use. Whatever technology being used, be it the light bike, or androgens, may suit the sport.

I'd advise googling on anti-aging. You don't have to be miserable, weak, or non-virile. Most anti-aging right now is high profit, and some doctors are intimidated to giving to low doses.

Hears a great story from HBO's Real Sports #99, and Bob Klapp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0LEj8IPHGU&feature=PlayList&p=AA0F4F7CE9858A1F&index=0

I've spent hours talking with both geriatric and non-geriatric doctors about the real benefits of AAS.

Just last week, at was at the gym. A guy walked over to me and said "How old are you?" I said, "47." He said, "Do you compete?" I said, "yeah." He said, "I bet your numbers are perfect too, huh?" I said, "Yep, except my cholesterol is to low on both sides." He said, "You'd expect that." I said, "Yep. What do you do?" He said, "I'm an ER physician over in Coppell." I said, "Oh. Well, pardon my poddy mouth but do you think I'm fucking up?" He said, "Nope. No way. Look at you. I see fat people all day long." I giggled. I didn't make this up. This actually happened last week at the gym.

When I was kid, AAS were over the counter. We grow up with them. Somewhere along the line a misinformation campaign, somewhat like "Reefer Madness" got underway.

The wide range of benefits certainly outweighs the risks, and especially for anyone over 30.

Technology has always been, and will always be, a part of sport.

There have been a number of studies done about the typical user: late 20's on up, white, above average income, very health conscious is the typical profile.

Start with the video. Google on anti-aging. Go to boards like bodybuilding.com (a huge resource), professionalmuscle.com, and so on. There's so much good information that goes beyond the fluff.

Here's another study that has been done for decades. 35% of all people, irregardless of how irrational something is, will believe whatever they are told, even though the empirical evidence present otherwise.

There's big money keeping folks unhealthy. There's big money in keeping anti-aging "exclusive". It's not about health. It's about money.

With regard to estrogen levels getting to high, there's a 3 whole groups of anti-e's that solve the problem in nothing flat.

In fact, I was reading that the latest science on prostate cancer is that although testosterone has to be present, high ESTROGEN levels seems to be more of an indicator for prostate cancer. It's when the ratio of test / est gets to where the est is to high that the incidence of prostate cancers goes up. It was some fairly reliable source, but, I'm forgetting where I read it.

Just as "Reefer Madness" was bullshit, so is much of the current AAS misinformation campaign.

bluecaddy17 as far as your stuff goes, I'd say think about what your goals are. If you wanna be a freak, at 5'2", juice your brains out, but, realize that it's like the Dart Vader hood: it only works as long as you keep it on. Honestly, if you have shitty genes, don't eat right, are clueless about how to train, you'll never look like a guy on the from of M & F. By the same token, this technology is everywhere, and it certainly is not as dangerous as many other things. E.g. pain pills, alcohol, tobacco, being overweight.I think you should get everything else tuned in: diet, genes, training method, before considering it. I know...what's the magazine at the front of the magazine rack? M & F, Musclemag. In reality those guys are gifted, and have an entourage coaching them. I.e., they know exactly what they are doing.

With regard to zakariahzol's comments regarding sexual function, that's because your buddy is an idiot, and had no clue how to keep that from happening, not because AAS are bad.

Technology is very empowering...The Internet, guns, bikes, clothing, whatever, but, how you use that technology makes all the difference. Part of the issue with driving some technologies underground is that they don't get studied properly, and putting them into the underground only makes them more valuable. In the case of AAS, they have been studied since the 40's and the studies got ignored. However, just a few studies, like that deal with dose levels typical of using athletes. What they are finding out is that even at EXTREME dose levels, any dangers are highly overstated. It's been known for years that any side-effects are typical temporary, and are easily managed.

The next step in this evolution of technology in sports will be gene manipulation which will build upon AAS. If you're curious about that google on "mystatin inhibitor" and google on "Superbaby."

Viewing the body as a machine, and tuning it, and your equipment (skates, bike, surfboard, whatever), as a "Real Jock" seems, to me, to make perfect sense. Picking and choosing the technologies, and associating some weird morality to them, to me, seem nuts.

That's the facts.

Do we say Lance won the race because he had the best bikes, and that's not fair? That's cheating!

No. We don't.

In fact, Lance won the race because he had the best bike, the best genes, the best coach, the best training, the best of everything in coaching, genes, and technology.

Did Lance juice? Who knows? If he did, he didn't get caught.

If I lose a race because I have a clunky old bike, is it fair that I was to poor to buy a bike like Lance's?

Hummmmmm.

Technology is, and will likely always be, part of being a "Real Jock."

I'd say it's not worth it. I see several guys at the gym who are big, but several of them have very noticeable acne issues. Maybe they just happen to have bad skin, but I'd say they've got something else going on. I don't think it's worth all the damage you end up doing to your body. The truth is some bodies aren't meant to be big. You're a very attractive guy as-is. You should leave what you have alone.

Ever been to a NASCAR race?

I have. In the pits.

You know what happens to the top finishers in a NASCAR race? They have to tear their cars apart, piece by piece, to make sure they hit spec. It's exhaustive but how NASCAR does business.

Can one do that in sports that involved physical performance in a way different from NASCAR? Probably not, as it's a cat and mouse game. Technology versus technology.

Perhaps the best answer is to set specs on the physical part and leave the rest alone. It would, in essence, make he game fairer.

steroids are only to be used by retarded fags with low self esteem, and guys from long island with plucked eyebrows. Don't do it, THEY ALL LOOK TERRIBLE 2 years later. ALL OF THEM. And yes this means you (if your shaking your head thinking you still look good.) lol

You make the point, exactly, for anti-aging. There's absolutely no reason to look terrible as you age. That's it, exactly.

I've talked to a number of doctors over the years.

A few weeks ago, and I made a post here on RJ about it, I met a guy, 60 years old, who had looked, and felt, like crap for 15 years. He hit the juice, and instantly turned back the clock 20 years. He was raving about it.

Your point about looking bad, aging quickly, being sick more often, getting diseases of aging, when they could have been avoided is exactly right.

Who would WANT to age prematurely? Who would want to look like shit?

Thank you for brining that up. It completely makes the point for anti-aging and hits the nail directly on the head. One does not need to have those diseases, feel like shit; and look like crap. THERE IS A FIX.

What chuckystud said. I've used the milder andro precursors like Superdrol before and have gotten excellent results: muscle gain, increases on all lifts, etc. Anyone who gives you a cautionary tale about their friend's erectile dysfunction or the like never understood that when you've gone on a cycle of exogenous testosterone for 6 or so weeks, your body hasn't been making a lot of it on its own. To get it back into the habit, you have to do a post-cycle treatment. Usually this involves estrogen blockers like tamoxifen, but there are several OTC products that can help you out. As long as you do the research, aren't stupid about your cycles, and have your diet/training right, you can use them safely and effectively. Best of luck, guy.

UVaRob, the DEA has asked Congress for authority to class the precursors, as well, based upon anything that positively impacts endogenous, or exogenous, androgens. What they are asking for is pretty sweeping, and now right in the back door of the "nutrition" business.

Because this effects a super-huge business, I think there will be a strong lobby against it.

I.e., they're asking not that the classed substances be hormones that dissolve in lipids that are anabolic (AAS), but anything that positively impacts them. In other words, if it works, they want to be able to put folks in jail for using it.

Traditionally, that has been the FDA's job, but, now the DEA has asked Congress for that authority.

There seems to be an interesting double standard.

Women can take estrogen. Anyone can get poison (Botox) placed in their faces to remove facial expression. You can have your face broken up and re-arranged. You can even have implant to effect appearance. However, androgens have become taboo in medicine, but, bigger than ever, in popular culture. Like reefer madness the media has been engaged in a misinformation campaign. To the DEA, and FDA's, credit they have been more truthful, albeit in an alarmist way.

Performance enhancement has been used since the days of The Greeks. Beauty products? Who knows?

I think the current legislative view is more about maximizing return to the corporate shareholders than about anything else.

It'll be interesting to see where it all is 30 years from now. Will they jail someone who injects a substance that is naturally occurring in their body? Hard telling. The Catholics DID chop the heads from folks who said the world was round.

The world often is almost insane and complete illogicial in what it does.

Once gene manipulation becomes more common, what then? Myostatin inhibitors will at least double the current muscle mass of most folks.

One could ask the question whether or not man evolves WITH science, or not?

Here's a thought to ponder: what if, through genes slices, man could be given gills, and lungs, to live either in the ocean or on land? At that point, we've reinvented a whole species. Now, that same technology, of course, could be used to fix horrible diseases like CP, MS, and so on. Who gets to decide?

Technology is neither bad, nor good, in itself.

Cloning is an interesting example of another technology that's taboo in humans, but, not livestock, or plants.

Deep thoughts.

It's not as simple as testing for juice. There's way more questions than that.

I guarantee that sports will be applying science as hard as ever until the end of time. It's natural for a cognizant species to want to evolve itself.

I say to each his own... If you want to juice, then do as was suggested by some of the guys here and do it the right way... by getting everything tuned in and by going through a doctor you can trust... etc... at least that way, you'll have all the bases covered, you'll know (or have people around you that know) exactly what you're doing, and you'll run less of a chance of getting some crap off the street that you have no guarantee is real and no guarantee that it's not contaminated with who knows what... and there's plenty of folks out there willing to sell crap that can do you harm.

Personally, I prefer to stay as natural as possible. Part of that is because I don't want to be that big... part of it is, since I stopped doing heroin 22 years ago, I have a personal aversion to even taking an aspirin... and the bigger part of it is, I've done this once before the natural way, I know what my body is capable of if I do the work, and I actually enjoy putting that kind of effort into building my body... because when I'm done, I want to be able to say that I built my body myself, with work and proper nutrition. Its just a personal preference, and I like the feeling of accomplishment that comes with it.

Good luck and be safe, whatever your decision...

Here's a cool read from none other than reason.com:

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28645.html.

They make basically the same rationale points that I did, albeit more eloquently, with regard to technology and performance.

Some guys really like other guys with bad acne all over their body, small testicles, and manboobs.

Some don't.

Choice is yours.

Try Musclemilk

One of the problems with keeping stuff underground is ignorance as with the poster just above this one (changed...it's Laselle post).

In being around this stuff for 33 years, I've rarely seen acne (some folks JUST get acne), bitch tits (a person does to much without taking the right counter measures), and, of course, gonadal reduction happens temporarily because they aren't being used. In watching all these folks grow older over the years, I've also been able to observe truth. That's why I say to read the studies, rather than a 2:08 fluff piece on TV.

The person just above demonstrates exactly why it should be set back to how it was before 1991. Of course, it won't be, because there's to much money being made by various parties, but, know that the DEA wants in the business of regulating anything that works (precursors) which gets into the backyard of some big business, so we'll see what happens.

The current legal policy borders on insane, but, it is what it is. The sports, nutrition, fashion, marketing businesses are all benefactors, and turn the other way. Technology has been a part of sports since ancient times.

Whether it's bats, bikes, skates, or coffee, technology has been, and will always be, a part of sport.

If folks stopped watching the WWE, or M & F wasn't at the front of every newsstand, or the hunky guy wasn't on the tv commercial or MTV, then, stuff might change, but, even then, who would want to grow old prematurely, have diseases of aging, and so on, when they are clearly avoidable using these technologies. Even IF every sports league, across the board is able to develop a test, that doesn't change popular culture, nor should it.

If you see your friends growing older, gracefully, you'll be a little more liberal in your viewpoint on this stuff.

My prediction is that even with testing, it'll be alive and well. It's simply to big of a part of popular culture, and telling lies doesn't fix that. The biggest example of how that doesn't work is the 40 year war on pot. People are still smoking loads of dope. Another example was prohibition of alcohol. As the current, and next, generation grows older, anti-aging will, and is, becoming a HUGE business. Simply stated: it works. Anytime something works, be it pot, or alcohol, or juice (an juice arguably is good for you), popular culture will find a way to do it. I think, if a test is developed, GH will become more popular, and gene therapy is just around the corner. Folks will use what works.

To original question of should a skinny 5'2" juice up? Well, my answer is look around. There are legal risks. There are some minute medical risks. You can get ripped off. I suppose it's an individual choice, or at least should be. I don't think folks should be made to age prematurely and not pursue a plan that works, as opposed to doesn't work.

Folks are allowed to get fat. We don't jail them, and that's way more dangerous than AAS, except are extreme dose levels. Folks are allowed to smoke. Folks are allowed to drink. The insaneness of the current policy is that putting something into your body that naturally exists there; can actually do it good; and perpetuates a healthy lifestyle is amazing. If we're truly concerned about saving LIVES, CLEARLY, we need to outlaw fat folks.

Time will tell on this. The current legal policy ignores science, and prevents any really open discussion. Sports will test, but, it'll still be there, or many talented athletes may well just walk away because of the testing.

Science is an adjunct to the body itself. I guess that time will tell. No excuse, though, for the ignorance of above.

Because this is a sub-culture, reality gets pushed under the bed more often than not. One thing that DOES amaze me is how many teenagers are doing the stuff (or think they are). That never used to be the case when you could get it over the counter.

I personally feel it would be a lot better out in the open, but, because of the money, power, and jobs, on the line, I don't think that's likely in this decade. That legal policy really speaks to a bigger issue of failed policy. Having 1.5 million folks in jail on any given day, of which about 70% are drug-related seems like it's not working.

Interestingly, the use of AAS in treatment of HIV+ folks, has done some good science that's shown time and again that even at doses way more than most athletes would use these substances are well tolerated.

The Positive Effects of Testosterone on the Heart
The Positive Effects of Testosterone on the Heart
by Doug Kalman MS, RD




Steroids will cause your kidneys to implode, your heart to blow a ventricle, and your liver to squirt out of your arse, fly across the room, and knock the cat off the futon. We read it on the Internet and saw an after school special about it, so it must be true, right?

Actually, the more you learn about steroids, the more you come to realize that, like all drugs, there's a difference between their intelligent use and outright abuse. In this article, Doug Kalman takes a look at the effects of Testosterone on the heart. What he found may surprise you.


Over the years we've all heard the repeated mantra that anabolic steroids are bad for the heart. Some physicians will tell you that gear raises your risk of heart disease by lowering your good cholesterol (HDL) and raising your bad cholesterol (LDL). In fact, as some docs will tell you, steroids are known to even induce cardiac hypertrophy (enlargement of the heart). And since you can't flex your heart in an effort to woo women, who'd want that?

But, as in every story, there's more than one side. In fact, let it be said, the dangers of steroids are overstated and, hold onto your seats, may even be good for the heart. Let's examine some of the scientific studies on the positive effects of Testosterone on the heart.


What are the cardiovascular effects of steroids?

Cardiologists at the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital in Australia recruited both juicing and non-juicing bodybuilders for a study. Each bodybuilder had various aspects of the heart measured (carotid intima-media thickness, arterial reactivity, left ventricular dimensions, etc.). These measurements indicate whether bodybuilding, steroid usage or both affect the function, size, shape and activity of the heart.

The doctors found some obvious and not so obvious results. Predictably, those bodybuilders who used steroids were physically stronger than those who didn't. What was surprising was that the use of steroids was not found to cause any significant changes or abnormalities of arterial structure or function.

In essence, when the bodybuilders (both groups) were compared with sedentary controls, any changes in heart function were common to bodybuilders. The take home message from this study is that bodybuilding itself can alter (not impair) arterial structure/function and that steroids do not appear to impair cardiac function. (1)


Does MRFIT need a T boost?

A famous cardiac study was published about 10 years ago. It soon became on ongoing study known as the Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial (MRFIT). The present study examined changes in Testosterone over 13 years in 66 men aged 41 to 61 years. The researchers determined if changes in total Testosterone are related to cardiovascular disease risk factors.

The average Testosterone levels at the beginning of the study were 751 ng/dl and decreased by 41 ng/dl. Men who smoked or exhibited Type A behavior were found to have even greater decreases in T levels. The change in Testosterone was also associated with an increase in triglyceride levels and a decrease in the good cholesterol (HDL).

The authors concluded that decreases in Testosterone levels as observed in men over time are associated with unfavorable heart disease risk. (2) Sounds to me like a good reason to get T support/replacement therapy in the middle age years!

In a similar study, researchers in Poland examined if Testosterone replacement therapy in aging men positively effected heart disease risk factors. Twenty-two men with low T levels received 200 mg of Testosterone enanthate every other week for one year. Throughout treatment, Testosterone, estradiol, total cholesterol, HDL and LDL were measured.

The researchers determined that T replacement returned both Testosterone and estradiol levels back to normal and acceptable levels. They also found that T replacement lowered cholesterol and LDL (the bad cholesterol) without altering HDL (the good cholesterol). Furthermore, there was no change in prostate function or size.

The take home message from this study is that T replacement doesn't appear to raise heart disease risk and it may actually lower your risk. (3) It appears that more physicians should be prescribing low dose Testosterone to middle age and aging men for both libido, muscle tone and for cardiac reasons.


What about younger men?

It's been long established that men have a higher risk of heart disease. One of the risk factors implicated is Testosterone. Reportedly, the recreational use of Testosterone can alter lipoprotein levels and, in fact, case reports exist describing bodybuilders who've abused steroids and have experienced heart disease or even sudden death. But the question remains, is the causal association one of truth or just an association?

To answer this, researchers at the University of North Texas recruited twelve competitive bodybuilders for a comprehensive evaluation of the cardiovascular effects of steroids. Six heavyweight steroid-using bodybuilders were compared with six heavyweight drug-free bodybuilders.

As expected, the heavy steroid users had lower total cholesterol and HDL levels as compared to the drug-free athletes. What was unexpected was that the steroid users also had significantly lower LDL (the bad cholesterol) and triglyceride levels as compared to the non-steroid users. In addition, the juicers also had lower apolipoprotein B levels (a marker for heart disease risk). Thus, the authors concluded that androgens do not appear to raise the risk of cardiovascular disease. (4) The take home message from this study is that the negative cardiac side effects of steroids are most likely overstated.

In a little more progressive study, researchers at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the Boogie Down Bronx (the BDB to those in the know) examined Testosterone as a possible therapy for cardiovascular disease. (5) The researchers note that T can be given in oral, injectable, pellet and transdermal delivery forms. It's noted that injections of Testosterone (100 to 200 mg every two weeks) in men with low levels of T will decrease total cholesterol and LDL while raising the HDL.

In fact, Testosterone therapy has been found to have antianginal effects (reduces chest pain). Low levels of Testosterone are also correlated with high blood pressure, specifically high systolic pressure. The researchers determined that returning T levels back to normal and even high-normal levels have positive cardiovascular effects and should be considered as an adjunctive treatment for maintaining muscle mass when someone has congestive heart failure.


Putting it all together

Strong research demonstrates that the risks of negative cardiovascular effects of steroids are overstated. In fact, a recent paper published in the Canadian Journal of Applied Physiology questioned the whole risk of using steroids. (6) Joey Antonio, Ph.D. and Chris Street MS, CSCS published strong data showing that the risks of steroid use are largely exaggerated, much like scare tactics used by your parents while you were a kid. Of course, it goes unsaid that abuse of anything will lead to unwanted consequences.

We know that as we age, circulating Testosterone levels naturally decrease. For most people the Testosterone decrease goes from high-normal to mid to low normal. Data shows that there's an inverse relationship between T levels and blood pressure as well as abdominal obesity (that paunch we see on so many middle age males).

Testosterone replacement lowers abdominal obesity and restores Testosterone back to normal levels. Restored Testosterone is correlated with better mood, better muscle tone, stronger sex drive, lower cardiovascular disease risks, stronger bones and better memory. It's important to note that while conservative use gives a

Testosterone replacement lowers abdominal obesity and restores Testosterone back to normal levels. Restored Testosterone is correlated with better mood, better muscle tone, stronger sex drive, lower cardiovascular disease risks, stronger bones and better memory. It's important to note that while conservative use gives a pronounced positive health benefit, higher doses may not necessarily lead to further health benefits.


What to do

If you see your body composition changing (your gut starts looking like your Uncle Lester's), your strength or muscle tone diminishing despite your hard training and good diet, and your sex drive not matching up to TC's columns, have your Testosterone levels checked. The acceptable normal range for Testosterone to physicians is 300 mg/dl to 1100 mg/dl. Yes, that's a pretty wide range.

In the clinic, we see people with the complaints consistent with "andropause" (a term for male menopause) and/or increased cardiovascular risk having Testosterone levels between 300 mg/dl and 550 mg/dl. Bringing it up to the mid to high-normal level is what gives the health and "youthful" benefits. Traditionally 200 mg/dl of supplemental Testosterone given every one to two weeks improves body composition, lowers total cholesterol and LDL, while raising HDL.

It appears that supplemental T is a healthier and safer way to go than many of the drugs used to treat poor lipid profiles. The data presented in this article applies for males over 35, not those who are 18. If you think that you can benefit from Testosterone therapy look for physicians who market themselves as "anti-aging" or "longevity physicians" as well as the more progressive endocrinologists or cardiologists.

Long story short, used intelligently, Testosterone is good medicine!


About the author: Douglas S. Kalman MS, RD is a Director for Miami Research Associates (MiamiResearch.com) a leading pharmaceutical and nutrition research organization in Miami, Florida. Doug is also a national spokesperson for the American College of Sports Medicine and according to his latest test has high T levels. Doug can be reached at dknole@hotmail.com.

References:

1) Sader MA, Griffiths KA, McCredie RJ, et al. Androgenic anabolic steroids and arterial structure and function in male bodybuilders. J Am Coll Cardiol 2001;37(1):224-230.

2) Zmuda JM, Cauley JA, Kriska A, et al. Longitudinal relation between endogenous testosterone and cardiovascular disease risk factors in middle aged men. A 13 year follow-up of former Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial participants. Am J Epidemiol 1997;146(:609-617.

3) Zgliczynski S, Ossowski M, Slowinska-Srednicka J, et al. Effect of testosterone replacement therapy on lipids and lipoproteins in hypogonadal and elderly men. Atherosclerosis 1996;121(1):35-43.

4) Diekerman RD, McConathy WJ, Zachariah NY. Testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, lipoproteins and vascular disease risk. J Cardiovasc Risk 1997;4(5-6):363-366.

5) Shapiro J, Christiana J, Frishman WH. Testosterone and other anabolic steroids as cardiovascular drugs. Am J Ther 1999;6(3):167-174.

6) Antonio J, Street C. Androgen use by athletes: A reevaluation of the health risks. Can J Appl Physiol 1996;21(6):421-440.

before starting ask yourslef what your motivations are. Is your self esteem wrapped up in the way you look -how big your arms are, your chest? If not now you will find steroids elevate or link your body size and self esteem. Yes your life will change, people that never noticed you before are all of a sudden throwing themselves at you, people will step out off your way without you asking on the street, bus, subway. Straight women will want you, straight men will envy you, people at the gym will admire you. but then get ready to be used for your body, and objectified by people that are only into your arms, abs, ass, etc. but don't give a damn about you -this gets tired real fast when it comes so easy, your like what the fuck is this, people are so shallow.

If you juice as part of a fitness life style it will have you seeking juice most of the time, keeping a variety of suppliers on hand. Dealing with some shady folks -being ripped off sometime or another. Alot of bodybuilders look great but are in some deep shit...posing for money, hustling, stealing, dealing. You ready to get needles from the harm reduction center or internet? you ready to worry about running out of juice before you finish the cycle. you ready to stick your ass so many times it is full of scare tissue, you ready for sus but (when the side of your ass you inject is bigger than the other)? you ready to have an uncontrollable sex drive that can lead to increase sexual activity and therefore more risk for STD's? you ready for an enlarged heart, you ready to take estrogen inhibitors to prevent bitch tits. But most of all will you be ready to come off the shit when it is time and face yourself as not the biggest baddest mother fucker in the gym or on the street but just some ordinary fuck.

These things most juice heads have to go through, and your motivations are important. Do you get a high from lifting weights, do you like challenging yourself, do you like the feeling of being pumped, are you willing to eat right, study up on your gear, being disciplined to quite when it is time? and most important are you doing this for you? then you have what it takes to be a survivor and repetition is the name of the body building game, it takes time.

Read the study above.

Most athletes, and in particular resistance trainers, have LVH (Left Venticular Hypertrophy) because they have very strong hearts. That's a normal accommodation to the loads, and actually shows decreased mortality.

Because of the current law, there's all the parts of the underground involved, but, most supplies are easily obtainable online. You'd think folks would want someone using clean stuff, but, they obstruct it, so there's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Like most anything, you have to keep doing it. Be it fitness, or plastic surgery, or whatever. That's to be expected. Because it's driven into the underground it's harder and there's a whole industry based around it, and, once it's in the underground, and industry in the policing effort, but, such is the American way (illegal immigrants, pot, street drugs, and so on). Anytime anything is in high demand and forced into the underground popular culture will do whatever it needs to to accommodate demand. Like any medicine, if you want the effects, you have to keep taking it. That's the nature of chemical manipulation.

Smart use of androgens has allowed folks well past thirty to engage in healthy lifestyles, inside of andropause. Go to a Master's bodybuilding contest somtime. It is amazing.

The current misinformation will only hold so long, as more and more folks are my age (47) and beyond, and know the truth about all this stuff. I don't see the law changing soon, but, I think, that, at some point, there will become something more reasonable.

There absolutely no reason folks should be forced into cholesterol meds and the like, needlessly.

The upside of HIV research has shown time and again, that, even at very high doses, side effects are minimal, tolerable, and almost always correctable, even in the sickest of the sick, with the poorest of immune systems.

Fluff is one thing, but, arguing with good science is quite another.

Re-read the study.

If some skinny guy thinks he's gonna become Branch Warren in 6 months on a bit of tesosterone, I'm afraid he's in for an awakening. Genes, as much as anything, play a HUGE part. I was 175 in high school at 5'5" at about 12%. That's genes, and I'm a classic meso / super meso somatype.

Your point is very good about the whys.

Lots of pressures.

Bottom line, though is that apples to apples; oranges to oranges, and if things were legal as they used to be, being fat is way more dangerous than being on the sauce.

bluecaddy, are you absolutely sure you have done everything possible to build? are you really following a true bulking diet to the letter? is your routine designed for this? are you over/undertraining?

chucky has all the facts, however, he talks about anti-aging therapy which is fine for older men. but you're 21, do you really want to commit yourself to a medical regime like this for years and years to come? plus all the other meds you'll need to control the side effects. can you even afford it?

i know you'll think about it long and hard before you decide.

i've just noticed you're in a monogamous relationship. have you discussed it with him?

i've known relationships split up over one of them taking steroids. personality can change. incredible confidence may seem like a blessing but it can bore others senseless. people can become very hardline, certain that only they are right, with little compassion for others' foibles. you only need to look around this forum to see exactly what i'm talking about

Here's a good read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid

BlueCaddy17, Your way to young to even consider the use of Steroids. Hell at your age your Sternum has not even fused together yet, and will not until around the age of 25. LQQk into some exercises that will directly affect that area (overall width and deepth of your chest)!
Go for that tight and toned LQQk! Decrease your time with the weights, but up your Intensity! Increase your aerobic time, and watchout for the crap you eat. Go natural, then in about another 10-15 years ask your question. By that time you will never know what science has come up with! Their are risks with Steroids, let no one tell you otherwise! As I said go natural, workout Intensly, and you will be surprised at the results!
BH

Steroids is one of my favorite subjects

You are asking about them because you accept the fact that they work. They unquestionably do. I am not ashamed or embarassed to say I am chemically enhanced. However, I started in my 40's.

The discussion is, are they right for you? My answer is no. Not now, in any case.

First and foremost, you are too young. However, your own hormones (testosterone, growth hormone, IGF-1, among others) are at their peak levels now and certainly will be high for the next 7 to 10 years. You can grow plenty naturally. In fact, at your age, steroids will do more harm to your body than good. I am not saying you won't get results, but there are certain physical development still occuring right now with which you should not be interfering. Unless you are dedicated to being the next Jay Cutler and want to have your pro card by age 25 and willing to commit your life 24/7 to training, forget about taking steroids now.

Second, steroids are not a magic bullet. I have said this before and I am going to say it again. What's most important, in this order, is nutrition, training and then - maybe - steroids, and if you know how to use, not abuse, them. They give you the best results if you know how to use them to support your nutrition and your training. What that means to you, at your age, is that if you eat correctly (calories are not your enemy when you are trying to grow, but what kind of calories very much matters) and train properly, you are going to gain. How much depends on what you do, plus what sort of genetics you bring to the game.

I won't talk about risks for steroids because, in general, though I accept that they are there, I also believe that they are overstated, sometimes vastly overstated - note the antisteroid hysteria going around lately. (That's just my Opinion, folks). Nevertheless, using them improperly - which usually means using too much - causes all sorts problems. And, since each man is slightly physiologically different from all others, the risk factors vary unpredictably.

If you feel must use steroids, wait 4 or 5 more years and eat and train right in the meantime.

I never understand this argument....
Just lift, dont make it complicted as fuck...just lift!
Im sorry, we want fast fixes to EVERYTHING in our society, and Im sick of it!
Most things of wonder and beauty took years to create. Look at the grand canyon...years and years.

Anything worth anything takes time, and WORK.

Fat people DONT want to exercise to get thinner, "just give me a pill, or maybe cut me open to take out part of my stomach to make me thinner, then I will be happy". Well, guess what? Im not part of that mentality.

Work for what you want and dont let anyone give it to you! If you get it on your own you have accomplished great things! Own it, and feel the PRIDE it gives you.

Sorry to rant like that but , DAMN! Youre hot guy with a banging body... and youre making progress... slow progress is STILL progress. Kudos for that.

buffnut2003, your ignorance is appalling.

It's never been about a quick fix, and, in fact, juice doesn't work like that. It allows you to TRAIN / WORK harder, and enhances recovery, mood, strength, endurance, and sexual function. It has nothing to do with a lack of work.

Truth be known, folks that train without extra androgen often over train, under eat, and under recover. You're blowing crap out your ass there. They simply don't have the ability to recover adequately from the intensity of exercise put forth in resistance training.

buffnut2003, as your own androgens decline, I'm pondering if your view will become more informed as you grow older and see your own androgens dropping.

Here's the thing about getting a boost from supplements that work, as opposed to those that don't: you have to keep taking them to maintain the effect. Being able to work harder, recover faster, prevent diseases of aging, look good, have lower incidence of illness, have improved mood, lower fat, higher strength, and performing better sexually are all compelling reasons for use.

As you've read above, there's some good science being done that debunks the crap that gets floated by people like you.

I know folks who've been using since they were 15. They're the guys you see on the cover of Muscle Mag at 24. Those guys have fierce genetics, a work ethic from hell, unsurpassed discipline, and study their craft and treat it as a science day and night. Compared to being overweight, or smoking, or drinking, those guys still have lower mortality (see the UNT study) than regular folks. That's because they are engaged in a healthy lifestyle, and have a level of discipline and intellect that you just don't see in the lay population. They are the sorts of folks that lying to just doesn't work on.

Now, does bluecaddy17 have what it takes to go to the highest level? Probably not. Would juicing up still be safer than smoking, drinking, or over eating? Yes, without doubt.

From where bluecaddy17 sits, seeing the mags, and some juiceheads at the gym, there's the WANT to go down that path. Like so many things in life, however, there's a downside. In this case, it's not the health issues (they're grossly overstated, transient, and there's good science to debunk most media claims), but, the fact that you have to keep taking them to maintain the desired effect.

Women take estrogen for decades. Should bluecaddy17 go down that path? I don't know. I think it should be a personal choice.

I think the current insanity regarding AAS is beyond insanity (LOL). The single worst health risk is fat people. PERIOD.

Driving all this underground serves no useful purpose.

Science has been of part of sports for centuries. Lawful, or not, that won't be changing any day soon.

Here's the thing, if bluecaddy17 decides to hit the gear, he should understand that it's best to get on the stuff and stay on, and not be bouncing himself around (makes complete sense). He should study the science forwards and backwards. I know a number of very accomplished users (I compete) and, frankly, I've never met a single one that hadn't studied all this at great length.

If folks can have their face broken, eat themselves to death, get implants, have butox injected, or take estrogen, bluecaddy17 should be allowed to take something natural like testosterone if he feels like it. The current rationalizations are beyond stupid.

All that being said, he needs to consider his legal jeopardy from crazy folks. It is what it is. That's probably the biggest concern in term of his adulthood. A life needlessly ruined by draconian law is a high price to pay because one decides to be healthy, strong, and so on, inside of being a "fan."

In all honesty, if he's only gained a few pounds over a bunch of years, he probably needs to tune his diet and training method.

In a nutshell, I think he should make an informed choice. I don't see an overly strong reason for him to get on the stuff, but, I don't see an overly strong reason for him not to. He needs TRUTHFUL information (facts) and not loads of media fluff.

It's like the choice between a cheeseburger and a chicken filet. If bluecaddy17 chooses the chicken filet, even though fat folks eat cheeseburgers, he should be well informed, not lied to, and certainly not thrown in jail for trying to be the best at it.

With myostatin inhibs in test now, we'll definitely see some 400 pound bodybuilders in the next few decades. Myostatin inhibs will likely make androgens look mild with regard to muscle growth. It's going to make for interesting sites, as well as have amazing effect on diseases like muscular dystrophy.

Saying that technology is bad is wrong. Sport is sport, and science is part of it. Whether it's a bike, a boot, a ski, clothing, or whatever, all the pieces of technology, genetics, training, timing, and so on go to work to seperate the guys with win from those who don't.

To attach a moral significance to stuff that works is wrong.

Rather than pushing these technologies into The Undergrond, they should be up with front with some honesty about their use, and abuse, and an acceptance that hormonal manipulation is, and will remain, a part of the game.

Everything I've seen over my 33 years of lifting leads me to believe that the dangers are grossly overstated, and the benefits are grossly understated.

chuckystud saidbuffnut2003, your ignorance is appalling.

It's never been about a quick fix, and, in fact, juice doesn't work like that. It allows you to TRAIN / WORK harder, and enhances recovery, mood, strength, endurance, and sexual function. It has nothing to do with a lack of work.

Chucky, I think you're misinterpreting. He is not saying that YOU are looking for a quick fix, just that too many people ARE. Can't you agree that it's not a good idea for a 21 year old who is seeing gains to start on steroids unless he has some sort of deficiancy? Surely the best advice for a normal, healthy 21 year old is to work as hard as possible, and to be patient, before trying any steroids. That's not appalling ignorance, it's sensible advice.

Misinformation or not, steroids wont dont bugger all for you if yuor diet and training sucks. If it was spot on you would still be getting a reasonable return on your investment. And no offence but looking at your profile piccys I would say you are far from getting it right.

The fact is it obviously isnt working for you and no amount of steroids are gonna help you get past that.

So if you have the disposable income to spend on steroids then employ a personal trainer for every session and one that focusses and analyses your nutrition as well.

Also take into account your age factor, in general yuo look around this forum most of the guys your age are lean, their muscle make look big but so would yours if you lowered the body fat. In my opinions most guys dont carry muscle bulk that well until their early 30's but thats just personal opinion.

Spend it on food.

Some of the personal trainers are horrible.

bfg1, I'm actually trying to bring my body fat up just a smidge so I can make better gains. A couple days after Christmas 2007, I was 7.8% at 201, on a seven point caliper test. At 5'5", and 201, at 7.8% (the guy taking the test said I was probably around 6%, but, he couldn't get enough to grab :-), I'm elite in my class. Saying that I'd be more muscular if I dropped fat is not really true. I don't know why you're so misinformed, but, I needed to correct you. I hit 215 to 225 most winters, at no higher than 12%. This past summer, I was at 3%, at 179. I'm fully nationally qualified in the NPC, whether, or not, I pass your muster, or not. Perhaps you just needed to look closer. Right now, I have about 186 pounds of muscle. That's certainly well within the definition of "muscular" or having an abundance of muscle.

http://www.realjock.com/fullphoto/?id=9730_152279&height=311&adult=0

tanktop, with regard to waiting, there's no real value added by putting it off, other than having your friends blow by you. Engage brain, before typing, there, little buddy. My point was that some of the guys start in their teens. I think that might be a bit early, but, my real point is that it's his body, and, and long as he's not endangering the public welfare, nor a burden to society, he should be left alone to pursue happiness as he sees fit. Certainly, juicing up at 21, and using something natural like testosterone, is not as bad as drinking, smoking, being overweight, or inactive. It's important that you apply some logic in your analysis. At 21, there's no compelling reason not to. At some younger ages, one could argue the person is still growing, but, most good science says that you will grow taller, and stronger, with the earlier application of these technologies. (They used to say it stunted growth but, know better now.)

Chucky you make some compelling arguments. So let's move beyond the philosophical and into the practical: say a guy decides he does in fact wanna go on steroid supplementation, but doesn't wanna risk a legal situation or a possible health consequence. How does he go about safely getting (preferably supervised) treatment?

I must admit Chuckly as openly anti steroids and most supplements I find it hard to say this but I totally subscribe to yur view point.

However, the sad fact is that most users dont do what you are prescribing which is why there are so many anti steroid campaigners. The fact is for every one person who is prepared to engage in these forums on the debate there are 10 that dont and just paraphrase, dont do the research look at the results and go about it totaly wrong. Now this is not an argument for them being banned, I believe that they should be allowed through legal means that way the individual can be supported and the quality of the drugs can be checked as their is so much cheap crap out there that can be lethal.

One of my best friends is a pharmacist by trade but her current job is the analysis of seized drugs (not just steroids), as well as added ingredients they find the quality poor, the contaminant level high and they have even found cases where other addictive drugs have been added to the mixtures.

Now if that process can be delivered by legal means and we can be pro choice and support the individual then it can only be safer and better for all involved.

A good friend of mine does use steroids and he has an understanding doctor who was prepared to work with him on his usage, I would say he is one of the lucky few tho

I already addressed that (scroll up). That's the single most compelling argument not to.

I remember "Reefer Madness", and the package inserts on AAS saying "does not enhance athletic performance". The "establishment" flat out lies about so many things.

Now, fat, of of shape, pizza-eating, martini-guzzling, cig smoking, legislators are trying to intimidate doctors by getting in the practice of medicine.

The DEA has asked the GAO to ask Congress to give them authority on anything that works (not just AAS). Rest assured that has some "supplement" companies up at night.

So, to answer your question, no doctor is going to get involved in a sports performance program if his license is at risk, so it gets driven underground.

Recently, the crackdown abated testosterone on the market. What did it do? Drove the price up. Scared some otherwise law-abiding folks. But, mostly, it drove folks to stuff that's five times stronger than testosterone that can be bought over the counter: Finaplix. As usual the failed "war on drugs" drove the users to stronger, more dangerous substances. Gosh, who was the rocket scientist that figured that one out.

Now, livestock growers don't want to do paperwork on every cow (and each gets Finaplix, or Ralgro, or Revalor) so...we'll see where it leads. In typical fashion, the enforcement effort ruined a few lives, scared some folks, and drove all the end users to strong substances. To me, that seems stupid, but, typical of the views here in the U.S.

On nice thing about being older is that I can work with the doctor in an open fashion.

chuckystud saidI'm elite in my class. Saying that I'd be more muscular if I dropped fat is not really true. I don't know why you're so misinformed, but, I needed to correct you.

With all due repect chucky that post was not aimed at you. I think whilst you are obviously good at what you do you take your principles as an experienced body builder and try to apply them en mass to an audience that is not at your level in their development training or nutrition.

What is significant to you say for example insulin issues and will make the difference for you when you are competing or preparing for a shoot is is minutia when it comes to someone either who is just starting out, or training 2 or 3 times a week then going out drinking at the weekend. Quite simply they have bigger fish to fry like getting their training and lifestyle spot on in the first place.

Now taking the individual who that post was aimed at and at the average gym warrior whose body fat is not sub 13% their muscle mass will indeed look bigger by dropping the body fat.

chuckystud said

Some of the personal trainers are horrible.

Indeed and theres alot of crap advice out there too, so learn your stuff and treat a PT like any other purchase ie if they dont fit your ethos and lofestyle dont use them

fitnfunmich saidChucky you make some compelling arguments. So let's move beyond the philosophical and into the practical: say a guy decides he does in fact wanna go on steroid supplementation, but doesn't wanna risk a legal situation or a possible health consequence. How does he go about safely getting (preferably supervised) treatment?

Supervised treatment for the purposes of bodybuilding is not possible in the US. HOWEVER - if you choose to treat yourself, you can advise your physician under the seal of doctor/patient privilege and ask him to monitor you to avoid or mitigate some of the possible side effect (polycythemia, poor lipid profile, estrogen imbalance).

It helps if the doctor is himself a bodybuilder or at least fit. A fat slob physician is NOT going to be much help.

:-)

My doctor is an ex-fireman, ex-paramedic, ex-powerlifter, ex-semi-pro football player. We work together.

Of course, I'd never do anything that was against the law in my bodybuilding pursuit.

I went through two other doctors here in Texas, before I found the guy I'm currently with. It's a treat, because he knows what I'm thinking almost before I say it.

Joey: Honestly I'm more intrigued by the idea of supplemental steroids for anti-aging, etc., more than bodybuilding. I'm pushing 40 and have started to notice some small changes that like a bit more fat around the love-handles, and perhaps a slight decrease in sex-drive.

I workout 3-4 times a week, but have no desire to be all bulked up, just toned and fit.

So Chucky has said lots of stuff about the various types of roids, the good vs. bad, and need to oppose estrogens and all, and the fact that the anti-aging docs tend to be uber expensive.

And let's be honest: most physicians will not and do not recommend steroid supplementation for men as they age, and even if they do it will be the androgel applied to the skin, which Chucky swears is for shit.

So anyway I'm just thinking about it, but there seem to be many hurtles to jump...

Chuckystud you are a wealth of no bullshit information. I've read a lot about steroids and I'm completely with you on this one.

Keep up the great work, I love it. Tell it like it really is bro!
Joe

i wouldn't get it over the internet -that is the last resort in my book. You don't know where it's really coming from, made, or even real. You might send your money and not have any thing sent back. And worst the times that the package is confiscated and you loose money isn't worth it, then your name ends up on a list and every package that comes from that country or through that shipping company is scrutinized. If ordering from out of country you will eventually have a package confiscated and get a letter telling you so.

Get your self to the right gym. In the right gym you will have people there ready and looking for folks like you to sell to. Make friends with body builders you can trust, use their suppliers that way you know what your taking is real because they have taken it. stick with the same supplier and group of buddies that will hook you up when they know a shipment is in or have extra gear they can sell to you.

chuckystud said
tanktop, with regard to waiting, there's no real value added by putting it off, other than having your friends blow by you. Engage brain, before typing, there, little buddy.

It's interesting how you insist that people post details of their workouts, photos, etc, but your advice almost always includes that they should take steroids. I'm not going to argue with you on the side effects and cost/benefit analysis, I'll just repeat your own advice to you. Unless you are working hard, sleeping/recovering, and eating right, steroids will not help you. And since those things all have zero risk, it's stupid to add steroids to your workout without first maximizing the others.

As for the assertion that they are not as bad for you as smoking, drinking, etc, it's beside the point. The point is that they are slightly more risky for most people than not taking them. How much more is open to debate, but is not debatable that they do carry at least some risk.

I have no doubt that I would be bigger now if I were taking steroids, but as others have suggested, I also would be bigger if I spent the money on training, worked on my diet, regimen, etc.

The only advice on steroids I can respect is this: if you are doing everything possible to see gains, and still are not progressing, then you should see a doctor to find out if you are deficient. If you feel that you need to be bigger regardless of any risk to your health, then you should see a mental health professional.

spot on tanktop you have nailed that to a t

damn...all this controversy...
I agree with Tanktop.
and Chucky you ARE on the internet... your own advise is not to listen to yourself?? I dont get it.
You sound like some kind of PUSHER!

The guys is way young. Hes 21!!! for christ sakes.

Chucky-

not that you need someone to defend you because you don't you can more than hold your own against the insults and accusations that are being thrown at you like you are in dodge ball game.

If nothing else you are to be respected for wealth of knowledge on this highly explosive subject.
Which seem to have brought out the claws in some.

Guys-

Bottom line is this "bluecaddy17 asked a questioned and Chucky gave him an answer and a lot of reference material for him to make an informed decision.

I fail to see the problem with that.
He's a grown man and responsible for making his own decisions.

If he decides to use or not that his decision at least now he has some resources material and more knowledge then what he had before.

Steroids will always be around just like other drugs will be it is now embedded within the framework of our country and culture.

But to lunch in to an attack on someone just because they happen to be knowledgeable on a highly explosive issue is just not fair.

Chucky-

You really know your stuff man.

bluecaddy-

Whatever decision you make, sure you are doing it for the right reasons.

I'm indifferent on the issue of steroid use because it's always going to be a part of body building and that's a fact of life.

Ducky I think if you read back you will find that chucky was the first to insult anyone in a derrogatory arrogant fashion

Deleted rest of my response as cant be arsed with a pointless argument

At the end of the day Im all for arming people with the facts by letting them read unbiased material but simple facts is the answer you would have expected from someone with that knowledge and experience

"Im at the pinnacle of my career. For people engaged in competitive body building it would make a difference, you my friend are not and need to look at your training and lifestyle as this is where your problem lies"

Regarding testosterone supplementation, the only truthful answer is to say that the jury is still out. You can quote studies all day that show benefits; someone else can quote ones that show no benefit, or negative benefits.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080101184625.htm

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/01/06/testosterone-supplements-colorectal-cancer-screening/

http://longevity.about.com/od/researchandmedicine/a/testosterone.htm

Unless you are suffering from symptoms of deficiency, taking supplements may be foolish. I don't know. And neither does anyone else, no matter how strongly they believe they do.

All one need do is look at the history of estrogen replacement therapy in women-- once recommended for all, now widely regarded as risky, to understand that it is not possible in the short term to arrive at meaningful results on such things.

PS- Chucky, I am happy that is working for you, and I don't doubt that it is. But I don't think it's wise to even suggest that it will work for everyone

Wow I didn't realize I had begun such a lengthy and in-depth discussion. Thanks for all the responses, guys. I've enjoyed reading them.

One repeating bit of advice I saw was "eating right" and "sleeping." What I don't think some of you understand is that not all of us were built to pack on lean muscle instantly, or even after years of weight lifting. I've found that some men can look at a weight and their pectoral and tricep muscles bulge at the site. That was my point; I'm not that guy. I'm the guy that has worked hard as hell for 5 years to gain the weight that I have. At one point I was consuming 150g of protein daily, from whole protein sources (lots of fish and turker, whey protien, etc) Otherwise, the idea of steroids probably wouldn't have been considered.

Perhaps, though, some of you do understand. If so, please, by all means, share your experiences and struggles with gaining some mass. I'm not looking to have to drag my massive arms on the ground one day and wear a bra; I would not, however, mind going up to about 140 or so.

And, Chucky, though I greatly appreciate you sharing your apparent wealth of knowledge and experience, it seems like you have a bit of bias against fat people and it's unclear whether or not you take into account the biological aspect of body form and fitness. Biology does not necessarily rule us, but some DO have to work a bit harder at obtaining some goals. I guess that leads me to inquire of you aspect on the biological influences over the body? particularly regarding fat to muscle ratios and fat and muscle gain.

bluecaddy,

I have a physique apparently similar to yours. I worked for years in the gym with little results. It was the http://hardgainer.com/ website and books that made the difference to me. I may not be muscular enough to impress people here, but I wish I had photos of 1. before working out, 2. after 5 years of doing bad workouts, and 3. after 1 year of following the hardgainer workouts. For me, it was a Godsend. And it takes about 3-5 hours a week (depending on the cycle).

I won't try to explain it all but basically the premise is that people who are not "genetically gifted" can never be a big as the pros, but that they can make big changes in their physique by very carefully following a routine of the proper number of reps, proper recovery, proper diet, and very gradual increases in poundage. When I cut back on my reps and increased the weight, I started seeing changes immediately (within weeks).

The other primary premise is that advice from body builders who are either gifted or who are taking steroids is not helpful to those who are not. If you try to follow the exact routine of someone on steroids, you will likely have very little gains. At least Chucky is honest about what he takes-- and I won't say that his advice on routines is bad, but it does make sense that unless you do everything he does, you will certainly not see the same types of results.

A third premise is that most gyms are more concerned with attracting and keeping clients than they are with helping people build muscle. Consequently, most gyms focus on entertainment, socializing, and aerobics. You have to find a gym with free weights, smith machines, squat equipment, etc, if you want to work out right, and you have to ignore most of the advice you get, because it invariably encourages too much working out with too little dedication.

What I find interesting is that there is DEFINATLY an age gap when it comes to steroids...and I already know this will be taken out of context but whatever...

Those who grew up in the era of Arnold believe in anabolics - because yes they will give you amazing strength and growth...quickly. It is looked upon as a quick fix and not (for many) as a stepping stone.

According to www.drugfree.org the short term side effects are as follows - long term AT THIS TIME - ARE UNKNOWN:

What are their short-term effects?
Reports indicate that use of anabolic steroids produces increases in lean muscle mass, strength, and ability to train longer and harder. Many health hazards of short-term effects are reversible. The major effects of anabolic steroid use include liver tumors, jaundice, fluid retention, and high blood pressure. Additional side effects include the following: for men shrinking of the testicles, reduced sperm count, infertility, baldness, development of breasts; for women growth of facial hair, changes in or cessation of the menstrual cycle, deepened voice; for adolescents growth halted prematurely through premature skeletal maturation and accelerated puberty changes. Researchers report that users may suffer from paranoid jealousy, extreme irritability (ROID RAGE), delusions, and impaired judgment stemming from feelings of invincibility...

I personally grew up in the time of Hulk Hogan who told me to "take my vitamins" and in turn will get muscles. I did, and I am getting bigger all the time. Albeit at a SLOWER rate than Chucky...

This is your choice dude. Personally I would do some soul searching because this can be a life altering choice.

I have seen the effects of steroids on MANY people - I was a non football player in the football fraternity on my campus and to say that some guys had roids for breakfast, lunch, and dinner would be an understatement. Some are starting to have health problems now some are not - and one is no longer with us. He had delusions of granduer and raged on the wrong person...

So to say I have a negative view of anabolics would be absolutely right and will never endorse them. Learn proper eating, working out, and muscle management methods and go from there.

laselle, thank you for your kinds words on my progress.

Perhaps you haven't read this before: I was 175 at 12%, at 5'5", in high school, and had the fifth highest strength index in my high school. When I was 28, in Lincoln, NE, I weighed 228 pounds at 12%. I'm actually about 30 pounds lighter than I once was, although I now hold between about 195 and 210, off season, at less than 12%. I was 201 at 7.8% on a 7-point caliper test the Monday after Christmas 2007.

I was 155 as a sophomore in high school, when I started circuit training. I had no exposure to AAS, until I was 26.

My somatype borders on super-meso, and I'm a very strong meso-endo somatype at the least. I've been studied a couple of different times, because of my genetics. I DO NOT have a myostatin inhib gene non-present, however, as in "superbaby" or a few extreme bodybuilders. Mystatin inhibs are the next thing coming down the pipe and will be very exciting.

I used to do lots of cross training (biking, ice hockey, roller hockey, walking), but, as I got competitive, and due to the volume of workouts I do (3 a days this past summer for 18 weeks), hockey is way to intense for me to do concurrently with my lifting efforts. I routinely test in the top 2% nationally for fitness levels.

The science has gotten MUCH better over the years, and much of the pure crap put forth by the medical and legal communities has been proven to be bunk time and again over the past three decades.

It's exciting that Suzzanne Sommers was on Larry King last telling the truth about some of this stuff.

There's absolutely no reason for folks to be getting out of shape, suffering from diseases of aging, and popping a cabinet of statins and bp pills every day when there are better alternatives.

Guys like me are prove positive of the values of anti-aging, exercise, clean diet, and a positive outlook.

Again, thank you for your kind words.

Granted, there will be some idiots who do some stupid stuff, and a certain part of the sample that will die anyway, but, of the millions of folks using AAS every day the compelling numbers just aren't there for preventing the public access to these very safe, useful, life-extending, and life-enhancing, technologies.

As a man ages (gets beyond 30, and enters andropause) his views become more liberal. For whatever reason, hormonal manipulation has never been taboo with women, but, has been with men. I suspect that taboo results from fear, jealousy, a feeling of inadequacy, a sense of envy, at the primal level, of those so resentful of the folks that choose to engage in these life-enhancing, and life-extending, lifestyles.

If only the obesity pandemic would be attacked with such intensity as all the hoopla on juice.

Death from steroids in 2007: 0
Death from obesity in 2007: roughly 6.75 MILLION.

Surely, the energy directed at AAS would best be spent on that 6 MILLION fatties.

This commentary seems appropriate for this thread:

Honesty about steroids would be refreshing
By Dan Le Batard
Just one time, above all the noise from media members shaking their torches and pitchfork-wielding politicians following instead of leading, I'd like to hear one thoughtful athlete cut through the crud and say that he/she isn't sorry for anything other than this ridiculous hysteria surrounding our fun and games.
[...]
Just once, I would like to hear an active athlete/entertainer surrounded by a steroid scandal rise up and be honest and unafraid the way retired Charles Barkley can be when he said that, if it meant the difference between being poor and rich, he would have popped illegal pills ''like Tic-Tacs'' and spent all his time sticking needles in his ample posterior.
Read more at the Miami Herald

Fucking Charles Barkley can be funny as shit. I lived in Phoenix for five years.

AAS are interwined into our popular culture and aren't going away. That's just the way it is.

It's a pity about such hoopla and draconian laws, but, it is what it is.

Only integrity about all this stuff, and the aging of the users, will help to get some sensible legislation.

I could give a rat's tiny behind about baseball. It's entertainment, and has almost nothing to do with sport. Call an apple and apple.

The mainstream media has done so much horrible fluff on this topic, they should be ashamed. To be sure, organizations like HBO Sports, have been more thorough, but, if there some boys in MLB that juice, who cares?

When the fitness industry / nutrition industry / ad agencies stop using juiceheads as poster boys maybe the culture will change, but, telling lies will never stop use, and putting folks in jail only makes for more risk to the user. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

As someone who spent 11 years in broadcast news, I'm embarrassed with some of the stories I've seen written about the AAS saga because they are so far from reality, and are poor sensationalism worthy of The Enquirer.

Folks juice up because it works, makes them feel good, allows them to perform at a higher level, helps their recovery and confidence, makes them more attractive, and prevents diseases of aging. It's not about the almighty dollar with most users.

The typical profile of a juicehead: white, late 20's on up, good money earner, very, very, fit, and health conscience, very well educated, no bad lifestyles issues. They are a very difficult group of folks to mislead because of their intellect.

Dammit, Chucklet - every time I think I can write you off as a hopelessly egotistic blowhard, you write a few compassionate, logical and reasonable posts and I have to deal with you as a human again.

Cut it out!

J.

chuckystud said I suspect that taboo results from fear, jealousy, a feeling of inadequacy, a sense of envy, at the primal level, of those so resentful of the folks that choose to engage in these life-enhancing, and life-extending, lifestyles.

Id settle for a sense of disgust and lack of self worth that they have to resort to them, its only cheating themselves in my book

But hey ho its not my body

Is penicillin cheating death? Unlike testosterone, it's not natural, yet it's used.

chuckystud saidIs penicillin cheating death? Unlike testosterone, it's not natural, yet it's used.

steroids for training purposes are not medicinal though and I was merely pointing out why others have strong viewpoints on it and that we are not all sitting here feeling inadequate, scared or any of the other things you cited.

Agreed some may feel it but dont just pick derogatory comments as a means to strengthen your argument all the while, if you tried a balanced discussion you never know you may win more converts over to your evil ways!

chuckystud said
The typical profile of a juicehead: white, late 20's on up, good money earner, very, very, fit, and health conscience, very well educated, no bad lifestyles issues. They are a very difficult group of folks to mislead because of their intellect.

hang on a friggin second, and no offence to the original poster, but I hardly see that his body is representative of the very typical profile of the average steroid user in anyway shape or form. And that is what ignited this lengthy discussion in the first place. Had he have been then I probably would not have engaged in the first place.

Here's something for you:

"The profile of the typical steroid user has been misrepresented to the public, and
to members of Congress. The “typical” steroid user has been presented as fitting one of
two profiles: either the million dollar sports star, or the hapless teenager seeking to
emulate him. Certainly, Jose Canseco was not the only steroid user in Major League
Baseball. In fact, there are elite level athletes in a variety of professional and Olympic
sports who are using or have used steroids to enhance athletic performance. A number of
them use steroids in willful and unethical violation of the rules of fair play and may even
deserve our scorn. But the Commission’s concern cannot be about the regulation of
athletic endeavors or the adulation deserved by athletes.
The star-struck adolescents who risk their health by emulating star athletes are
deserving of our concern and protection and yet the Commission in amending the
guidelines for anabolic steroids should first do no more harm to those young athletes as is
likely to happen if penalties are increased without a thorough consideration and empirical
analysis of the scientific and societal harms.
The steroid user who has been overlooked in the current focus of attention may be
the most common user of steroids. Although I have met or corresponded with well over
a thousand steroid users in the criminal justice context and have spoken with many of
them expansively, it may come as a surprise that the majority of them were not teenagers,
nor were they competitive athletes of any kind. The overwhelming majority were
gainfully employed, health conscious adult males, between 25 and 45 years of age, using
hormones not for athletic performance but to improve their appearance. These users
typically are non-smokers who follow exercise routines including both strenuous weight
training and cardio programs, and adhere to healthful diets. Do they put too high a
premium on superficial appearances? In my opinion, absolutely. Are they
overcompensating for underlying self-esteem issues? Perhaps, in many cases. Are they
assuming risks that might potentially be harmful to them? Probably, yes, as do smokers,
drinkers, and extreme sports enthusiasts. But however misguided we may judge non-
medical users of these hormones to be, I seriously question whether they are the sort of
dangerous criminals deserving of extended prison terms. Their motivations are identical
to the motives of women who seek surgical breast augmentation or to those of men who
seek face-lifts, eye jobs, tummy tucks and the like. Of course, while our laws permit
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cosmetic surgeons to anesthetize and cut their patients to cater purely to vanity, doctors
are forbidden from using hormones for the same purpose"

from: http://www.ussc.gov/hearings/04_12_05/Collins.pdf

Here's another one:

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSCOL17558920071121?feedType=RSS&feedName=healthNews&rpc=22&sp=true

And a third:

http://www.ecracreative.com/blog/?p=107

I think these pretty much confirm Chuck's point about a "typical steroid user." But they also confirm an earlier point, that the typical steroid user is looking for a quick fix, and more interested in appearance than substance. I am not saying that Chucky is, but if we are going to talk about the "typical" user, we need to look at all aspects of the research.

I've done a few cycles over the years and neither me or my doctor detected any ill effects other than some mild backne that went away in a week or so. If anything, it improved my mood, gave me more energy and made me feel like spending more time in the gym. The sostenon did make hornier than an alley cat in heat, but my ex always did the cycle with me so I never got overly frustrated.

I know it can be overdone, but most guys aren't trying to be Lee Haney or Dorian Yates. They just want to look good feel good about themselves.

chuckystud saidAs someone who spent 11 years in broadcast news, I'm embarrassed with some of the stories I've seen written about the AAS saga because they are so far from reality, and are poor sensationalism worthy of The Enquirer.

Ditto. Once, as editor of a magazine, I assigned a reporter to write a story about the use of