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This is an undercover video of several slaughterhouses. Please do not respond to this thread in order to create division. I simply want to hear from people who have opinions on the video or who express animal rights passions as part of their broader spirituality?

I personally find being vegan to be very spiritually cleansing and awakening. I feel it helps me be more compassionate and in turn I am a happier person.

How does animal rights fit in your spiritual self?

A pack of wolves stalk and kill a sick moose.

A human chain leads a healthy chicken into a burger somewhere.

No difference to me. We live. We eat. Often we kill too eat. Thats life.

im vegan.

however, im also an animal science major in a farming area, so our curriculums and learning strategies/examples are based on livestock. just so you know, im pre-vet.

with that said, this semester i am working with swine, and know about other livestock as well, but only know about big factories on the swine side. because of that, i skipped straight to the pig part of the video so i could possibly shed some light on that subject.

i do not agree with most practices of any part of these industries, but i do understand the reasoning behind what is done. also, the smithfield farms and packing plant is not like what is in the video.

we have university farms which we raise, sell, and teach with. we have about 70 sows/gilts and maybe less than 10 boars(we do artificial insemination). where to begin...the crates you see the pigs in are for the protection of the litter. pig will fight and could injure others and cause abortions. the next crates you see them in are also protection for the newly born pigs. they are designed so that the sow cannot lay down quickly. a mother laying on her litter is the number one cause of death. ear notches are for identification. tail docking is so pigs wont bite other tails, causing injury or infection. teeth clipping if also to prevent injuries. castration is because intact boar meat smells foul when being cooked. after weaning, the sows are moved into pens, 4 or less per pen and they have enough room. this is the end of the small farm.

ive been to smithfield farms. this is where i get into large, industrial factory farms. this was for a field trip in our swine class. pig health is the number one responsibility. they do not mistreat or beat them. they do kill pigs if they will not be suitable for market, but they do not keep them in pain or in a bad condition in hopes it will be able to produce something.

i didnt watch the slaughter part because i honestly never want to relive that experience. if you give me a few points that they said, i can give you what i saw.



again, i completely do not agree with the industry or most of what they do, but i have to suck it up until i get into graduate vet school, so i learn and understand what goes on.

There is lots of flaw in your philosophy.

First off when animals hunt for food they immediately eat their prey and only take what they need.

We use animals for food (more than we need), fashion, animal testing, and entertainment.

Second, we raise animals in factory farms for months at a time in horrendous conditions, where they cannot move, are burned, skinned alive, beaten, and force fed, obviously different techniques for different animals.

So while a pack of wolves do indeed hunt down an animal in a vicscious manner, it cannot be compared with the prolonged horrors that we engage in towards animals.

In addition we are more evolved and smarter than other animals which should lead us to being more compassionate to others, including lower species.

I grew up on a small farm.

Killing animals that I had raised and cared for by hand was part of the circle of life. It was my responsibility to ensure that their time here was as comfortable and enjoyable as possible. And when it was time for them to be eaten, I was there to watch, and later I did the deed myself with as much compassion and care for pain as possible.

I try to do the same for the plants I grow.

Yes, it's part of my spirituality. I believe that I am part of the circle of life and that eating meat is fine as part of my role in the world. I also believe that as much as I can I need to attempt to ensure the quality of life of those animals which give their lives for me.

"First off when animals hunt for food they immediately eat their prey and only take what they need."

Raccoons will gleefully kill all the chickens in a chicken coop just for the hell of it. Coyotes will take down a small calf and eat very little of it before moving on.

Why does our intelligence mean we should show compassion.

I show compassion to those I care about. The reality is emotion is nothing more than a chemical process undertaken with the goal of getting something in return. There is no true compassion.

A debate built on emotion isn't very good. Emotion is more the tool of the catholic church.

But isn't it a double standard to point to animals who eat animals as a justification for humans eating animals. While then disapproving of things like rape, eating of young, abandoning offspring. These are things animals will do yet we as humans say this is immoral.

We use our judgement and realize rape, eating of young, abandoning offspring are horrible things that have terrible consequences.

Why can we not use the same logic and apply that to eating meat, horrible for the animals and our health.

Even though you supposedly brought this up again not to create division or some other hogwash, but what does not eating meat have to do with spirituality?

I can barely understand why vegans are vegans so before I criticize, what is so wrong with meat it is taboo?

Ryan I guess saving a poor lamb from my table makes some people feel good inside.

I'd rather feel good after eating some chops.

Everything is going to die at some point. What is so hard about just doing the work of nature on mass scale.

Sadly, for the animals, humans are my priority. I can't think about animal rights with all the human abuses going on. Babies are cuter than puppies. It's a sad reality.

You can be both concerned with human rights and animal rights at the same time, one does not negate the other.

Where's my leather pants and my chinchila coat?

Personally there are times where i would like to slaughter both human and animal alike. However from what i understand animals taste better, and it's hard to tan and wear human skins.

No, one does not negate the other, but my allotment of activist time and concern gets consumed by my own small efforts in human rights arenas. Just this past weekend, I parachuted into the home of some trailer trash in East Jesus, Kentucky where the parents were about to beat their kid again for being gay. I wallopped the sonsabitches and all is right again in East Jesus. Even the pets are happier.

McGaySadly, for the animals, humans are my priority. I can't think about animal rights with all the human abuses going on.

Heard that. Animal rights as a concept is only possible because the distinction between human and animal has become increasingly blurry. Which might be accurate biologically. I'm just not sold on the moral or ethical equivalence.

Babies are cuter than puppies.

I'm afraid an irreparable break has occured between us on this count.

Aggh! Not cuter, not by a stretch. Wrong choice of words. I should have said 'more important'.

My philosophy is that Humans are always more important than animals. Thus, whenever there is a conflict between the needs/rights of humans and the needs/rights of animals, humans win out. We need to feed a vast population, and while we might be able to do it with all plants, it ain't gonna happen, therefore, if slaughterhouses have to exist, so be it. Lab testing on animals to find cures for human diseases, bring it on. Kicking puppies because you think its fun, hell no.

Babies are cuter than puppies... but then again... i hate dogs.

Paradox: I think humans are responsible for creating a confined space in which to cram a bunch of critters and make it easy for a raccoon to feast. In the non-human wild, you'd never see a trapped bounty like that.

Once again McGay makes it easier to fast through lunchtime. ;-)

Another McGay Diet enthusiast?

Okay McGay... i mean REAL babies not photoshopped babies with Bean's face. HA HA HA HA

Photoshop baby? I'll have you know that child is my return on investment from dealing with the local sperm bank. Harumph!

Since these threads explode so quickly [like my undersized jeans in high school (ba-dump ching!)], I haven't read everything. I am not a vegetarian, but I will not eat meat unless it is farm raised. And although I have to put faith in them that they are ethically harvesting their animals and whatnot, I feel much better with the realization that these animals actually get to live before they are slaughtered. Factory farms are abhorrent because they take life and make it into a product, which is an egregious sin to me. There has to be some happy medium where we respect animals because they die so we can live.

But being a vegan!? Come on! My mom never missed her unfertilized eggs, so I am sure the chickens feel the same.

I would be a vegan, but I enjoy the man-meat too much!

(Aw, come on... someone had to type it!)

sicko, vegans don't eat eggs not because we regards eggs as a form of life. it is the fact that battery caged hens suffer enormously and it takes 100 hours of suffering to create 1 egg.

http://www.hsus.org/farm/camp/nbe/

As long as we watch for disease who cares about how we treat animals raised for food?

Perhaps we should raise cattle on free open ranges then mow them down like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5Ev19NsDQ4

We are going to kill and eat them. Why build a luxury hotel for people on death row?

I would like to point out that Hippie was pretty much the first person to divulge from the intended point of this thread

Hippie4lyfeWhy can we not use the same logic and apply that to eating meat, horrible for the animals and our health.

That said eating meat has nothing to do with spirituality for me. the first time I saw a chicken get its head cut off I was 3, and it was either my aunt or my grandmother that did it. Can I just tell you that was some fresh chicken!! I know my father killed a pig in the basement of my family's home before I was born, and when I was about 14 my dad had an entire pig delivered to the house which he then proceeded to cut up into nice sumptuous little pieces (and that says a lot coming from a guy who does not really like pork all that much).

I don't believe in religion and spirituality doesnt mean that much to me. I went to catholic high school, a private non religious college and am now in a jewish affiliated law school. I have seen plenty of religion and spirituality in my day and it all seems to be a crock to me.

and back to my hippie quote. I would debate both statements.

Horrible for the animals?

Not necessarily. going on the post by the very vegan Fryblock, most of the things that happen to these animals is done for their own good. Is it possible to raise animals in a more humane way yes, but then again would the animals even exist in the number they do if not for the industry? I understand we don't want to abuse farming but that speaks more to the current farming practices than to the idea of eating animals.

Horrible for health?

This is also highly debateable. The body can produce its own cholesterol so not eating meat doesnt mean you wont have high cholesterol or suffer a heart attack. My father had a heart attack, and he eats any kind of meat you can put in front of him from pig tongue/ear/hoof to chicken feet and brains. I have also sat down to cow udder with him. You know what the doctor told him after his heart attack, the only thing he had to change in his life was to quit smoking (seems like a plant is leading to worse health effects here). It can even be argued that being vegetarian or vegan is worse for you because you are not likely getting all of the nutrients that you need. Yes we read that b12 can be found on plants but is not consumed that way because we wash plants to remove bacteria prior to eating (I ask how is this any different from cooking meat to remove bacteria?)

on to another point and fabulous hippie quote

hippie4lyfeFirst off when animals hunt for food they immediately eat their prey and only take what they need.

We use animals for food (more than we need), fashion, animal testing, and entertainment.

Are you trying to argue that it is better when an animal kills a poor defenseless animal and then leaves half the carcass as opposed to when we kill an animal and use all of it. You can be damned sure that none of that cow meat or pig is going to waste. where do you think sausage and hot dog comes from?

chungo I do not see how I have "divulged" from the purpose of the thread. Animal rights and Spirituality are very personal to my life and many I know.

I feel as though I am more spiritually connected and have better karma because I am a vegan. I also feel health, nutrition, ethics, are all combined in spirituality. You are welcome to disagree. But please do not disparage my faith or belief system.

To go back to your topic:

Animals don't perform rituals or displays of faith in some deity. Neither do they have spirituality. They just exist, and live to please their urges and/or mate.

How can someone feel "spiritual" in connection to animals who clearly do not have feelings aside from primal self driven desires.

We'd be better off just like the animals, putting aside all the useless displays of spirituality and ritual. Then we can claim a connection.

in all these repeat threads....what is it you guys are getting from it? (both veggies and Meat eaters)

I mean, it's all the same stuff being thrown around haha....just none of my input (well, i guess till now)

Because someone started a topic?

The topic is animals and spirituality as the title says. Learn to read.

trance-

animals have social connections and raise families. They even get jealous and a lot are helpful to humans...like what is going on with dolphins in Japan....dolphins and wales are some of the most friendly to humans in the world. I mean there are accounts of them helping people lost at sea find land. Or what about what is happening with elephants...Their children are being hunted...and what are they doing in response...they are storming villages and killing human children.

you can't talk to them with your language, but they communicate and they exist. Why are humans the only beings in the world given souls? I mean, how else can they love each other and their human companions if all there is is instinct.

It's hard to swallow.

woah trance-

calm it...truce kiddo, jesus. Yeah i read the topic, but even you had to bring it back to the original topic not, 3 comments above my first.

Hippie I was commenting on the fact that you decided that the other topic would be for health issue this one for spirituality and then another for another reason. There was no disparaging of your "faith or belief system"

If health, nutrition, ethics, are all combined in spirituality then how can you start a topic that is meant to be just about spirituality. there is a flaw in your statement.

Sprituality and ethics sort of overlap into lots of threads.

Souls are what we try to use as a way of warding off fear of the unknown. We tell ourselves there must be life after death because we fear oblivion.

And well yah animals do raise young and build social groups. Based on instinct and evolution these traits and actions helped them survive. Everything an animal does has some purpose, they don't act out of emotion, only instinct.

Well a lot of this stuff does overlap. I am vegan first and foremost for ethical reasons, also for health and environmentalist reasons.

I am not here to debate you, I am simply looking to engage people who are interested in discussing how animal rights and spirituality are combined in their life.

I know it is in mine and many others, but I guess that is not the case for you, and that is fine.

Trance-

Well, I will not be the one to argue how you define spirituality...I would however recommend that you just do a little google search on animal miracles and things of that sort.

Like how pets have saved their owners and all of that. You'll be fascinated. Have you ever looked into the eyes of an animal, really really looked into their eyes. There is something beautiful in the spark you can see.

and all I was doing was adding a healthy viewpoint to the discussion.

look at those eyes

if you can look into these eyes and see nothing...then there is nothing more to discuss with you

I see blue eyes on a tiger.

Am I supposed to see something more?

thats a beautiful cat and that is why i wouldn't eat it. they also happen to be endangered.

Fair enough trance.

I see depth, knowledge, courage and love. I can see it, you don't have too. I respect your opinion.

for those who do see animals with souls...what animal inspires you most..obviously for me it's tigers....I wouldnt have them tattoo'd on me otherwise. Though I also really like elephants and dolphins too.....eek......too much!

chungo I thought this thread wasn't about eating animals??

this on the other hand is a beautiful cow

and here is a not so beautiful cow


either way its dinner. and if you have ever met catlle they are stupid and dirty.

its about animal rights. I think certain animals have the right to be my dinner

to you chungo, they are dumb to you.

to me and to others they are not. i understand and respect you stance. Shouldnt you too, respect ours?

and its a thread about animal rights that is headed by vegan propaganda media. how is that not about eating meat

I have also run with bulls and participated in spanish traditions that involve putting torches on bulls horns and letting them run through the street. are you also saying that I should foresake my heritage?

Chungo44If health, nutrition, ethics, are all combined in spirituality then how can you start a topic that is meant to be just about spirituality. there is a flaw in your statement.

I'm not sure....isn't that what you were saying to hippie? Just trying to figure out the flip flopping goin on here. Like I'm watching the Republican Debate.

is the vegan propaganda movement connected with the homosexual agenda by any chance?

I was pointing out that he left the agenda of his own thread claiming that all were part of one. there is no flip flop in my statements but rather in his.

I hope you arn't directing that towards me lol....cause i dont know what your talking about....but....heritage does have it's flaws...I mean, people used to hang in the square and also couldnt get married unless consulted by the king and consumation had to happen without flesh touching....heritage is bound to change as the psychological make up of a society morphs with time.

but now it's going into yours isn't it (flip-flop)?...wait, better to go in this direction...what do YOU wish to discuss in the thread...would you like all topics fused into one heading? no matter what hippie originally stated, what is it you'd like.....and my goodness...you seem to do no wrong heh....no tyra esteem coaching for you!

I was directing it as an open comment on animal rights

oh..and everything is propaganda...we all do what we can to get an issue recognized. But just because an issue isn't exactly something you support or believe in, does not in turn negate the fact that there is animal cruelty in the meat packing industry. it's not a lie, it's true...it happens, you can't deny it. i mean...ya know? Propaganda can hold truth, in this case, there is plenty of video footage, regardless who it comes from.

do you agree? i dont see how you can't...but I'm sure you'll try.

Propaganda in this case is the term fools use to try and justify their cause.

Regardless of any footage or whatnot animals are food. Why should you, I, or anyone care about the treatment of animals raised for eating?

Now animals raised for the purpose as domestic pets are different. Its right to protect dogs and cats from abusive owners. But thats about it. If we needed to eat a dog to survive then we eat it.

but you don't need meat to survive...if that were the case all veggies would have died of malnutrition.

and trance careful what you say....no one ever says their attempts to recognize an issue is propaganda, it is only used in rebuttle from the opposing camp, like for example...chungo (who I guess you consider a fool?) says Peta pushes their propaganda in their protests and all of that. And for us we say that the "Got Milk" ads are propaganda for the dairy industry (though to each party they would consider it demonstrations or advertising)

so...no....people don't refer to their issue awareness as propaganda................

Propaganda is just what the links from hippie are. Propaganda to support a vegan lifestyle. You can dress it up all you want with ethics and pics of kittens but it doesn't change the fact your evidence is no more compelling than a Moore film like Sicko.

I dont deny that both sides use propaganda, I also don't deny that there is not some cruelty in farming, I have openly conceded that fact.

Would I consider the got milk ad to be propaganda no. would i consider the ads that tout drinking milk can help you loose weight propaganda on some levels yes. everyone uses propaganda thats a given, I actually took a college course entirely devoted to propaganda years ago.

i thought sicko was a great film, trance do you also believe homosexuals can be coverted? or have you bought into the homosexual agenda?

Would that be converted?

Don't attack me on something not relating to the thread.

trance....I know the definition....but when you stated:

TrancePropaganda in this case is the term fools use to try and justify their cause.

you were using it in the wrong context....I was merely correcting you.

Again, no one would say, "WE ARE USING PROPAGANDA TO JUSTIFY OUR CAUSE" ... it would be more like "THEY ARE USING PROPAGANDA TO JUSTIFY THEIR CAUSE".

do you see the difference? I wouldn't want you looking foolish...apparntly cause, this thread is from "fools"..if i'm to quote you correctly.

Fuck it we are all animals in the long run. I do eat meat but it kind of does make me feel sick. I tried veal once and as soon as i was told what it was i felt sosick i threw up.

slayerstrppd03do you see the difference? I wouldn't want you looking foolish...apparntly cause, this thread is from "fools"..if i'm to quote you correctly.

You asked for opinions. And I gave mine. Its foolish to think we should give rights to animals and extend that into giving up meat.

Its foolish because the reasoning the animal supporter uses is the whole "look into the eyes of the cute kitty"

um....please do not change the subject, i asked if you saw the difference of the use of the word propaganda...I'll make it even easier for you:



YES




NO




no just cut and paste

oh and trance....I didn't ask for opinions....this isn't my forum

my screen name is

SLAYERSTRPPD03

not

HIPPIE4LYFE

You call it ethics and reason. I call it propaganda.

By supporting the thread author without stating your own opinions then your just as guilty of spreading the BS.

Or in your case I suspect just spreading the dramatics for the hell of it.

Trance-

what the hell are you talking about? are you having a phantom conversation with someone lol? you are making no sense. you keep trying to spin something onto me cause you had the upper hand in the last thread and right now your just making no sense

I'm guessing its miscommunication over the use a word.

If these threads are just your right to express an opinon then why refer to me as having the upper hand.

The ability to convey love compassion and a true respect for the animals in which we use as food needs to be applied. Animals are abused in all aspects of humanity's crule nature. Many humans have come to believe that that which they are not in direct contact with will not effect them. A terible asumption indeed. The emotional and spiritual detachment of the human race with it's food will drive us to accept even worse trecheries. The morality of the human race has been depleted something horid.

I grew up on a dairy farm. We raised cattle... we fed them, cleaned them, loved them, and even named most of them. I watched tons of cows grow from cute lil babies to adults. Each one was give the best care we could give them. Vet checks once a month, casts, and any type of medications they needed.

We cared for them because they have lives too. These farmers you see on that video are simply lazy assholes who dont have the humility to respect that which the earth provides. Instaid they are trying to do it in a more high pace and more efficient manner. But in doing so they have had to cut corners and ended up sacraficing their morals.

It is truely a shame when i meet someone who can look at an animal and only see an animal. I really feel bad for those who cant see that animal's personality, it's likes, dislikes, love, respect, honor, intellegence, or it's soul. Now dont get me wrong, i know that animals and humans think differently. But there is so much more in an animal then just blood, muscle, fur, and bone.

In the end, i believe that if humanity wasnt so fucking lazy they would be able to find a way to respect these animals and give them a suitable life while also working efficiently to supply the food we need to survive. But instaid we are so wrapped up on the cost of everything that we cant see that a dime for every hamburger we consumed could very well fix the problem. But like our taxes...we are not willing to give up a little for the sake of every one else.

Try this if you dont want to stop eating meat... fucking donate a dime for every steak or burger or hotdog or rib or chicken you eat to a animal welfare organization. Mabey things will get better.

the upper hand meaning, I had 5 people attacking my communcation tactics....here, I have been all but calm and making good points and asking fair questions and you are getting meaner and meaner....I havent said you were wrong, i think i very much said I respected your stance...yet you keep bringing it to this "bad" place and I can't understand why?

Timer has a great idea!

If people want to support the lifestyles of the farm animal then they should donate their money to the industry so the farms don't lose profits converting away from factory farms

that's not very responsible...you don't fix a problem by covering it up....factory farms can be shifted from one production to another....no jobs will be lost and the system can change.

why are you so opposed and angry about this thread trance, I mean in every thread you just attack and attack and attack...there is an opinion and then there is prejiduce.


prejiduce...i think that is more along the lines of wha you're doing.

trance...timer said meat eaters should donate lol

you really dont read the full things do you?

Animal rights don't directly enter my spiritual self, but ecological balance does. Screw up an animal's habitat, and I have problems.

Hippie: How do you feel about the Native American approach to being omnivores? Here we had a culture with arguably the highest respect for animals, and by most accounts extremely healthy, athletic people. They would pray and thank the animal they were about to consume. They would use every last bit of the animal. They never altered the animal's diet or mistreated it until it was time to hunt and kill it (arguably, not mistreatment any more than a pack of wolves would). Is this not the noblest of omnivorism? If this were happening in 2007, would you object?

Wondering about your threshold here.

EDIT: I moved this response from the other veggie thread. Then from the disturbing video one. Now I think I should move it back. Or it could go on the factory farming one. Aaaaagh I don't know!!! You've got too many fucking threads on this going on. Stupid manipulative barrage. /rant

ATX-

there is clearly a difference there...with native americans and all our ancestors...they never had over 40 billion animals killed yearly....the animals they ate were much much less than what is not only offered but consumed in todays society....i knew that wasnt my question....but that is a variable to consider...highly consider actually.

*Your* question? What question? I was addressing the original poster.

thats what i meant ATX with "Wasnt My Question"...as in....what you asked wasn't geared towards me (but I answered it also)

slayer - Since I don't see a wonderous light or anything in an animals eyes I'd be offended if it was suggested my tax dollars were to be used to improve the conditions of farms.

Perhaps the best course would be to use genetics to breed animals without ears, eyes, or other sensory organs so they don't even have the capacity to feel pain.

your tax dollars are funding war...you're okay with that?
your tax dollars are used by commercial companies to make a profit off you..okay with it?


that last statement shows us nothing more than that is the sickest thing i've ever heard a person say. You're an ignorant sicko- that's my opinon

Well Trance your idea is not far fetched. There is something called Imeat. Which is an ethical way of producing meat. It is strange science but it is likely to be the wave of the future.

I read an article in vegnews about how this is already possible, but not cost effective yet.

Using the cells in existing meat, you can essentially clone it and create an endless meat supply. It is the exact same thing as actual animal flesh minus the animals being raised and slaughtered.

I personally would choose not to eat "Imeat" for health reasons, however I would have no ethical objections to people eating it.

Just a quick link I found on the subject, I originally read about this in VegNews. I find it to be an exiciting and promising new discussion. It can potentially satisfy vegetarians and meat-eaters. This could eventually end the debate about animal ethics with regards to food or at least limit it severely.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4148164.stm

ewh lol....that article makes me wanna never eat anything again lol...but i hope they do it so people who need meat can not have cruelty!

sorry but that fake meat just doesnt seem right. I would rather know they killed a cow so i can have my nice bloody steak. I also like rare meat and i feel like you could never get the consistency / taste / bloody factors just right

Animal rights? I'm for animal marriage, but, they shouldn't have the right to vote.

slayer - Thanks for the insults. Since you dropped to that level I think your retarded and backwards for thinking we should care about the well being of a creature destined for my plate.

As for the tax dollars comment, no I'm not ok with my tax dollars being used for war which is why I don't vote pro establishment and I don't serve.

Grow up a little before you continue your crusade.

Just read the article on this link suggested by hippieforlyfe:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4148164.stm
Ok, they can probably culture muscle cells but what are they going to feed them on, blood? Where will they get the blood? Will they culture blood too, and if so what about all the chemistry that is circulated in blood that meat eaters may derive some value from. This article brings up a lot of questions, but what else should we expect from BBC.

There are other sources besides BBC which I am sure you can look into. This is all new so I am sure they will perfect it eventually.

trance...you are the only person dropping to any level....you can ask anyone....even the people that hate me who (on this thread) are being thick headed and rude and I'm sorry it isn't me, not this time.


you are thick headed and you will not listen to anyone about anything....you have brought no debate just a lack luster attempt at saying how wrong everyone else is and how right you. It is irritating talking to a brick wall...I think there are plenty of us here who can agree to that when it comes to "debating" with you.

you want to use technology to take any form of being away from thriving natural creatures you share the world with. By inhibiting them from having any form of natural life. it is sick and kind of serial killer(ish) way of thinking....I have never nor do I hope I ever run into a person with such a low moral compass as to suggest that as any healthy alternative. I'm sorry but that kind of thought process is a cry for help with emotional discourse and should be promptly addressed by a psychotherapist.

and get your facts straight

I don't care if you eat meat...I am against the cruel treatment of animals in factory farms.


do you see or not see how the two ideas are different. NO meat and then NO cruelty....do you see how they are not one and the same?

wait




YES


or




NO




okay, like before, cut and paste.

I think eating meat is very spiritual. It's a way of communing with nature and getting closer The One.

I think vegetarians are, therefore, all going to hell, because they never partake of the blessed experience of eating meat.

RAWWWWR!

You tell this vegetarian crap to all the animals that chased, bit, and or caused me bodily harm as a child!

ILL EAT EM ALL! mmghf*

One the other hand, that white tiger is inredibly awesome but Im pretty sure it would bite your face off if you looked it in the eyes...-.-


BESIDES all that, you still havent answered my question. what does not eating meat have to do with spirituality?

actually the bible states that animals are to be shepard and that only the food of plants shall serve as meat...

sorry gregsteven...looks like your ass is goin to hell haha ;) ... lata

Right. NOT!

And I suppose you planned on leaving out God's revelation to Paul that all the animals of the earth were for clean and should be consumed. That's in the new testament so you can hurl that veggie defense out the window!


Using the bible to condem others is completely deplorable -.-...


"judge not lest ye be judged"

I briefly dated a guy who claimed to be some sort of Buddhist, who was appalled at the idea of walking on grass without mentally apologizing to it.

Strange thing is, he didn't hesitate to eat a steak.

But ryan,

your friend greg was the first person to speak about those who are going to hell...exactly how is it okay for him and not me to make reference to the bible?

yes, it seems you have lost credibility in said statement because you chose to excuse a person from that which you claim deplorable.

please, asses all statements by all parties before making a claim and a judgement.

Slayer the bible to some does seem to indicate, early on that the a vegetarina lifestyle is paramount, but then it also gives strict instructions for eating meat as well. And my question doo you follow those instructions, ie kosher or halal and if so does that give you the 'right' to cast the first stone? If so then by all means cast, or not depending on the case. Or at least save your posts until really needed -- posting un-well reasoned or typed arguments without end is not the way to win arguments or friend, allies etc, and yes, while you may be well horrified by your own missspelling we are even more unimpressed, so keep that in mind when members have a tendency to throw out your whole argument for a spelling faux pas.

(And personally no, I wouldn't do that, but I question whether you have the integrity to worry about other other possible erros if you don't worry about spelling ones -- and I definately have misspelled words but I admit that they don't help my argument or point of view, so yes, rightly or wrongly spelling does affet your argument)

wreick


op, your wrong, greg cast the first stone.

man you people are blind tonight lol. hahahahahha.


you too have lost credibility for the excusing of a person and no a behavior simply because it gainers in your interest.

Excuse me for not drinking from the Fountain of Knowledge so deeply as you have, slayer, but I dont think Im responsible for knowing the details of every aspect of your forum to forum life -.-

and Im not really in any place to judge what behavior is naughty or nice.

the funny thing is werick


had this been an in person conversation, my well reasoned arguments would yes of course be considered credible...I mean, you can't spell check my words.

question, do you have every person you've ever spoken to give you a prewritten copy of whatever it is they are about to say to you too sustain their credibility?


no...you continue to fight me for whatever reasons...you are getting into a confrontation for no other reason because you simply have no idea where to go with this. you choose only to fight on the side that has the most supporters. That of course is expected by the average person. social connection. do you have it now? are you feeling better about yourself.

to me, it seems those who speak up only do so when there is a lot of people trying to slam down only a few. does it make you a big man? seems like you think so.

but ryan you just did before you realized it was greg who stated it first.

so now you are backpedaling for what? to make sure you have no tainted repuation or something?

you people make mistakes and try hard to do a clean up but no one is buying.

ANNNND! Now that I look back at it, I didnt direct that at you!

"Using the bible to condem others is completely deplorable -.-..."

That wasn't directed at anyone who didnt feel guilty of doing so. -.-


Making me feel like a jerk...(sniffle) lol

oh trust me....you look like one with or without my help.


oh here...*tissue

And back-peddling only stops or puts the bike in nuetral, silly.

Bikes can tbe peddled backwards and neither can life.

you know you're 18 when _________________.

Hey, you seem pretty cool and all, but can tell me why you wanna put me down so much?

You point out my mistakes. I apologize. You point out my mistakes yet again. So what do you want of me? To stop eating meat, because its not going to happen. To protest in front of places of meat-selling because that is not going to happen.

What is the satisfaction you obviously get when you undermine someone else?

Actually slayer you are misquoting greg. He didnt mention the bible, he said that eating meat was spiritual and that it would bring you closer to god but no where in there did he say anything at all about the bible.

Though if you want to argue the bible. In Genesis god gave man dominion over the animals, and there is more than one verse about what kind of meat man can eat. An animal must be cloven footed and chew the cut in order to be eaten, so beef and veal are ok but pork is totally out. Giraffe is actually kosher though there are varying reasons for why it is not consumer ranging from they cant find the appropriate point on the neck to cut to they cant get a knife long enough because the knife is supposed to be twice the length of the neck or something along those lines. the most reasonable reason though is just that giraffe is too damn expensive.

Do I feel a connection with spirit when eating veges? Sorry, can’t say that I do. I am a vegetarian for ethical reasons. I don’t like the idea of harming sentient beings because I must eat. I go a long with Trance on this one, I have never seen, felt, smelt, tasted, heard or thought about a spirit while eating veges. What is this spirituality but another new age term for religion? I honestly do not know. Please educate me!!

Is spirituality when:

I am playing a team game and we win a point or the game.
I am thrown by a wave that rides me all the way to the shore.
I am part of a team that has just helped to save a life.
I solve a problem that has not been solved before. It seems like an epiphany and afterwards I think that I knew the answer all along and wonder why it took me so long to figure it out.
I feel the group’s fear and excitement on a roller coaster ride.
I am walking along the shore and the sun is reflecting off the water with a zillion different facets.
My cat returns a ball of paper that I have thrown.
My husband and I come together while making love.
I am part of a huge crowd cheering at a game of futbol.
I watch Mandela (one of my heroes) win the Nobel Peace Prize.
I am at a party where everyone is laughing at someone’s joke.

Are these exhilarating events connected to spirituality?

I don’ know.

I wonder.

oh jesus chungo

he mentioned hell....is there any other religion in the world who refers to HELL...not in this time in the world except the judeo-christian theology.

and since the old and new testament are what make up the BIBLE. I mean...you can't keep hiding behind this word for word thing you arn't helping yourself.

::sends waves of love and peace throughout you angry peoples:: this is to people on both sides of the argument.