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This question is directed to guys who don't have a face pic. What are your reasons?

If you don't like the question, please simply refrain from responding.

Thanks.

Out of consideration for those who'd see it! :-)

"It's my perrogative!!!!!" Ask BB.

Hasn't this already been covered, at length, in other threads?

The headless are so touchy.

I'm more concerned about the dickless. What's that all about, huh?

Because I am ugly.

Well, because I dont want folk at work to know I am gay.

You're ugly? nah, i doubt that

I prefer not to put my face pictures online and that includes MYSPACE. I have a webcam though for others to view who are interested in chatting with me. Most people put their best pictures online.. some were digitally fixed, some were taken in a studio - hmmm,, pictures lie!(sometimes) or.. someone can put a face picture taken years ago when they look a little younger..haha.. so, either way. I personally, don't mind talking to someone who doesn't have a face picture at all. But, I admire those guys who have the guts to put their face pictures online. I guess, it boils down to personal preferences. most guys online don't want to talk to someone who doesn't have a face picture - and that is sooo understandable. :)

Wow ruck_us. I am soooooo sorry. I should have done some extensive research to see if anyone covered this prior to my joining RJ a month ago. Can you guys possibly forgive me?

Hmm...or maybe you should just read my original post again and see if you qualify for the last sentence.

P.S.: You should be nicer to a fellow INFP. Us few have to stick together.

I guess that you dont realize that some ppl are stil in the closet and for various social and other reason its hard to show up suddenly, knowing that their ppl have high expectations, and different immage of them.
I personally dont pretend,I also can't say am proud am gay, IT'S JUST THAT I HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE but to be gay, I have to live with that and find my way to get it out without shocking my beloved ppl.that's the reason I dont have public clear picture, still for ppl I can trust my face is available.

pick your rattle up sexy rugger ;-)

I think on the face pic issue tho not everyone is at ease with their sexuality. We all come at it from different angles and different ages.

I do wonder about the " so my work dont see" as why would they be looking and if they did chances are they're gay and wouldnt say anything anyway

Now, who's being touchy, ATX? I was just askin'. :p

BTW, are you also an enneagram type 4 like ObsceneWish and me?

I've never really understood why guys don't put a face pic up. Maybe they're in the closet, maybe they're shy; maybe they in the closet, shy and fug-ugly. Whatever, it's certainly annoying when they contact you asking to see your private pictures. Yeah, right, like that's going to happen in a month of Sundays.

C'mon headless people, grow a backbone.

PPS: You should be nicer to a fellow Austinite...and a fellow rugger...and a fellow over-35er. Sheesh man what's up?

oooo red does that mean I can see your private piccys he he he one sexy man :-)

In fact you all are so be proud and put those piccys up we wont call ya fug ugly honest

Well I made sure to put that line in my OP specifically to avoid flammable responses. So simple.

you're too cute Rugger...

Read your labels, wouldja? There's a difference between 'flame retardant' and 'flame resistant'. And what fun would it be if there wasn't a little forum drahma, anyway?

:D

I don't have any flame retardant stuff in my home because it would destroy me in my sleep.

This disussion is hotting up nicely I see.

And all you shades-wearin and top-croppin' dudes...those pics don't count!

Faces have eyes. Nice pretty human eyes.

so are the men

sod the group hug lets have an orgy instead :-)

must change that photo the flash was mega bright and makes me look like I hae piggy eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hot

come give me some hot sweaty man lovin rugger ha ha ha I wish


Sorry trolled your thread.

I think there are alot of cultural boundaries for those in different countries ie Greece as an example where they still have abhorrent views on being gay. Which is bloody rich as they are pretty much one of the first well chronicled countries regarding gay sex!

I don't have one because I am not 100% certain what i want. A certain member on here has my pic though.. :)

Just taking things slow..

A couple of years ago I had several images of myself up on a website. I was assured the images were protected.

A year later they started popping up all over the place - someone had stolen my image, they6 ended up all over the place with different people claiming to be me.

I had to work very hard over three years in order to remove those pics - and a lot of other personal information about myself - from the nets.

Eventually I will put up a new face pic, but not until I have the time to make pretty certain that nobody will easily steal them again.

Just a matter of having the free time and the motivation...

I feel flattered when I run across someone using my images. Used to happen regularly with some pics I took in the Black Hills of SD, however lately it hasn't been such an issue.
My query to people who are worried their loved ones or co-workers will run across their face pics here, is just to ask, how often do their loved ones comb thru gay websites looking for relatives?

ITJock said; "...I was assured the images were protected..."

How can anyone assure that? Any image can simply be copied to your own hard drive.

yuo can actualy disable the save as function on images but seldom do websites do it because of the cost issue.

Im glad they dont as I have some awesome copies of some pro photography that printed up really well and would have cost me $100 a piece!

i'd rather be called fugly than to have my face pictures all over the net. I don't considered it flattering either when someone use my picture and claimed as theirs .. it is almost similar as invading my privacy.

i've seen some fugly guys on here hmmm.. but pretty confident with their ugliness!!! hahaa.. ooppsss.. too harsh!!

p.s. i am fugly as well :)

There's no disabling the stealing of images. Even if they disabel the save function, there's always the friendly "Print Screen" key.

I don't take good photos :-. I guess that saves me from worrying if others have been copying and pasting my mug everywhere on the 'net.

Sometimes when I'm sick and tired of thinking I stick my head in the freezer ... Sometimes I'm a body - Sometimes I'm a head. Every now and then the two things come together, and we go places.

What I don't get is guys who don't have a facepic but are perfectly happy to let you watch them jerk off on a cam.

Do they not realise that screen captures and video captures are extremely easy to make?

They are insecure pussies. DUH

YES !

I wonder the actual number or percentage who do not post face fotos as they are insecure, how many do not post as they are not "out" yet, and what other reasons there might be (I've only heard the first two).

Then what becomes interesting is why do you feel you need to be attractive to a particular standard - I know a major answer but I mean we should fight against this reason and not have such inane ideas of acceptability based on "hotness." Guys can be brutal.

And also, how important is it to be out, how do you honor the process of coming out, and how does safety trump integrity (everyone's story on this will be different)?

Well said, MadApollo. I for one am not yet out of the closet, and probably never will be. At first I chose to remain in the closet for fear of being rejected and possibly even ridiculed by the people close to and around me. However, I have come to realize that I have chosen to stay in the closet for the sake of the people I love - my very loving wife and two wonderful daughters. My coming out of the closet would surely devastate them. And I don't think they deserve to be humiliated as I'm sure they will be where I come from!

Everyone's at different mile markers on this journey of life. If you're comfortable posting face pics, go for it. If not, don't. There's no need for us homos to insist on homogenous behavior. My face is probably my best feature, but I don't feel compelled to post a face pic on the public net. Call me a pussy, if you want; I may just bend over. :p

ruck us,
That could get some of us into BIG trouble.

...I agree. it is an individual process.

( I just like the word 'pussy'. It has such effect ! )

Isn't staying in the closet for reasons such as fear of rejection and such the same thing as being insecure. Maybe not insecure about your looks but insecure of what otheres would think of you or what you think about yourself being gay?

Rejection isn't always about "what others will think." I've known a person who got disowned by his parents during college, when he was still dependent on them. Rejection can be a lot more than worrying about what people will think of you. It can have some very real consequences like losing a job, losing parental support, etc etc.

@Cal: Gotta give Chucky credit for that one.

@Rune: Actually, I'm just afraid that Chucky will print a copy of my face pic and stick things in it. Oh, wait...

'Disowned' ... HA ! THE BEST THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED TO ME was being cut off from my families' 'security' -
Was on my own way before I needed to be, but it was beyond my control...

(The best way to see the world, anyhow.)

Be FREE, MAN ! Don't tolerate being told what or WHO you CAN'T BE.
Anything less than that is not living.

'Money' and 'security' are illusionary - material inventions to keep the weak cowering and affraid. It takes so little to be happy. Being who you really are is an integral part of that equation. And I think being healthy is @ the top of the list. Both are a process unto themselves.

I don't understand how anyone could be affraid of being who they really are ...

That comment was for Rune... same thing happened to me during college.

And doing just fine now.



peace

QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HEREBe FREE, MAN ! Don't tolerate being told what or WHO you CAN'T BE.
Anything less than that is not living.

Well I'm not in the 'fear of being disowned' situation but you can't assume we're all in your shoes. For example, my plans for life include finishing my physics B.S. and going on for an advanced degree. It's important to me. It's what I want to do in my life. So if I were in the situation of telling my parents and losing support, or not telling them, I wouldn't tell them, at least not until I wasn't dependent on them any more.

I mean, you have to consider realistic priorities. If I'm given two exclusive options, one being losing financial support to pursue my life dream, and the other being to not post my face pics on realjock.com, guess which one I'm going to pick :P It won't even take any consideration.

So yeah, to clarify, you may have goals that don't need the support of others, and so you can say stuff like that, but mine include shit that costs upwards of $30,000-$40,000 or more a year while making it really tough to hold down a full time job that will produce that kind of money. And frankly, right now my yearly income is like 1/10th of that, from only summer jobs.

I don't mind having a face pic on realjock because if someone took the time to get this deep, they're either gay or just don't care.

And Im right there with Rune. Im heading out to college next year for a degree in Engineering and it would SUCK if I couldn't go because I had the "talk" with my mom.

It's not so much that im suppressing my natural tendencies (Im more masculine like that) so I don't see any need to come out of the closet to everyone I am related to.

Not that Im not looking for the opportunity but there's a time and a place for everything...

[22]I [REALLY/b]wish some guys on had headless pics!![/size]

Anyone with snap-it software can copy any pic/image that appears on their screen-FYI

ok it is almost 3am here in NYC- hahaha

Runi,

I did not 'tell'. I was 'found out', and I am glad for it. It saved me from living a lie early on , and helped me to become extreemly independent, and rather well off - I might add. Also - I would not have had the opportunity to have a great four yrs w/ my bf at the time who left with me. ... Wouldn't trade those times for the world.

The truth will set you free ( So I have been told ). But we sure do have a whole bunch of liars setting a bad example in this world - usually for power and gain. Yup. Liars ! Ah, well ... I have also been told that 'the world generally loves a lie better than the truth.' Sad.

What about financial aid ? You know there are options you could mention to this 'friend' of yours.

What I find difficult to resolve is the impact that a married gay guy's coming out would have on the "inocent by-standers" such as the family that he has raised and, to put it bluntly, lied to. They did not ask for him to start a family. Unfortunately, he did and it cannot be undone. It would be perfectly alright if the consequences (or benefits as CalTrask2JimStark has put it)of coming out would be limited to himself. But unfortunately, they would not! So don't you guys think that the responsible thing for the married guy to do is to suffer the consequences of his actions and just live lie?

I could NEVER get married, have kids, etc with a woman... It creeps me out -_-

Thats a good question though. I think there should be a time when it becomes alright to.(i.e. when the kids are in high school->college)

No matter what happens, sorry to say, those kids are probably gonna get messed up emotionally the longer you hold it off. Sometimes definite endings are better than holding out for 10+ years.

Honesty is always the best policy. And there's always forgiveness. Plus, really, married gay men are not doing their wives any favours. What does it say about them if they are prepared to lie to their significant other? Doesn't the woman deserve to be with someone who loves them for being female? I think so.

I like to know whom I converse with. (Somehow that seems grammatically incorrect - oh, sorry wrong thread.)

Being someone who's not particularly photogenic (i.e. looks better in photos) I think its just as Red said. It's an issue of honesty. I don't yet have a good ab picture up because my routine hasn't reached the point where they look defined enough in an 'any angle' shot. Right now I'd need to have hire a gaffer to deal with lighting suitable to make them look as good as I'd like. In the meantime I'll just keep working out.

As to security, I post no picture on the net that isn't digitally watermarked. It's not a guarantee but it does set precedent for legal recourse if necessary.

I've nothing against those who don't post due to possibility of job loss or physical harm due to their culture/country.

As far as 'ugly' is concerned, there's always people who will find you attractive (besides your mother.)

If I said to some guy, "I think your really handsome" and his response is an emphatic or repeated "No, I'm ugly", it tells me two things:
1. He's either ignoring or dismissing my opinion.
2. He's got really low self esteem and that's baggage I don't want to have to carry.

I guess, from the physical standpoint (I'm intentionally leaving out personality, etc.), I find a hot body more sexually attractive than a gorgeous face. I appreciate the face on an aesthetic level but it's what you were born with and there's no personal pride that can be taken in something you had nothing to do with.

bgcat57: "not particularly photogenic"?
c'mon, it took me 3 seconds to hot-list you! :) Oh, can you share with the group how you digitally watermark your photos?
ruck_us: "Everyone's at different mile markers"
Yes--that was my angle I was going to bring up. And it's related to other questions of compatibility with others that are different. Can a butch guy successfully date a fem? Can a real tall guy date a real small guy? Can an out guy date a closeted guy? The answer's Yes to all of those, but only if it's right for those people. I, myself, prefer more commonality, and would not feel as comfortable dating a closeted person. The first guy I dated was in the Navy (no Village People songs, please), and we're great friends now, but I cringed 2 years ago at his promotional ceremony where he could thank his other family members and not his partner of 10 years.
Another reason one might not want to post a face pic? The internet is forever. Anyone who ever has thoughts about a political career should think carefully about it. Even if you think you're G-rated all the way, you know how slimy campaigns can be and how things are taken out of context.

I grew a set and put mine up recently

QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HEREWhat about financial aid ? You know there are options you could mention to this 'friend' of yours.

Hehe I know you're implying it's me but it's not :) I have parents who will support me in all I do regardless and I'm thankful for that. They would never disown me and they are very open minded. They are the kind who will be happy as long as I'm happy.

The reason I brought up the example of my friend is just to show you different circumstances that you seem to not understand. I'm glad you being found out and rejected by your parents was the best thing that ever happened to you, and that you found a great boyfriend. It's nice that it worked out for you. But it doesn't always work out like that. On the other hand, my friend is now working shit jobs like cashier and parking lot guy because he got his support cut half way through his college engineering degree. He's not totally fucked. He's got plans on how to go back and finish, but he's been delayed and for upwards of 2+ years. And if it weren't for his friends helping him out, (e.g. he's rooming with a friend who has a real job and has agreed to pay the a larger proportion of the rent, he's got friends that will drive him to work so he doesn't have to pay for a car, etc.) he might have been delayed even longer.

As far as financial aid goes, most respectable lenders won't give you enough loans to cover tuition at 30-40,000 a year. Instead, they'll give it to your parents through something called a PLUS Loan, because they are more likely to pay. I get financial aid myself for this same school and the way it works is I get about $10,000 to my name a year through grants and loans, while my parents get $20,000+ to theirs.


[quote][cite][/cite]So don't you guys think that the responsible thing for the married guy to do is to suffer the consequences of his actions and just live lie?[/quote]

I guess it would depend on his family and area of living. If it would destroy his family's lives, especially if children are involved, I'm not sure if I would recommend comming out. It depends what effect it would have I guess. If it would just make them dislike him but have no real effect on their personal lives then I'd do it.

I didn't have a public face pic until now. I finally decided that the impersonal stigma being headless created wasn't worth it. *shrug*

I really believe that in this day and age hiding in the closet is truly pathetic.

1969r- as far as political campaigns go - we are in a whole new arena here w/ GWB being the biggest liar in the history of US presidents * I travel all over the world, and believe me - THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS IT !

I really don't get how someone could put up with anyone in their life living a lie, or WORSE doing it to themselves, esp when the gain is TRUE happiness !

As for all this fear of having your pics lifted from here, get them copyrighted if it freaks you out THAT MUCH !
( That's what I do, because I also use my pics for work purposes.)



Last-

Man, I'm freakin' tired of responding to pussies with no pics for faces.

over and out.

btw -

it's interesting how this 'Runi' character will hide his no pic profile after re: to these forums... not a bloke I'd trust by a long shot.

CalTrask: "...As for all this fear of having your pics lifted from here, get them copyrighted if it freaks you out THAT MUCH..."

Agreed.

But don't you think it's a bogus argument these guys are making. Any picture can be lifted, here or anywhere, copyrighted or not. Should the "fear" of the picture being lifted outweigh having an honest picture of your face on a site like this?

Of course not. It's silly...and it's analagous to the "...I've got to rearrange my sock drawer..." response to an invitation. It's a creation of words to distract the inviter from the real reason he or she doesn't want to go the event...or, in this case, why he doesn't want his pictures to appear here. (I am willing to bet, fear of being outed, fear of being judged etc.)

By the way, I think mindgarden reminded us that there is a way of disabling the ability to download a picture from a website to your own computer. There is, although Firefox has a built-in "View Background Image" when a simple "Save Image" is disabled.

You can do a screen capture (both on PCs and Macs) or on Mac you can use the program built in to the operating system called "Grab."

John

...and a very public congrats and welcome to cacti for posting a face pic. Really... I think that's great.

Fastproof,

God, yes ... All I hear when these guys go ON AND ON about it is a high squeeky noise that is so irritating to me that I want to push them in a mud puddle and call them bad names. It brings out the worst in me. I never knew I could be such a bully, but these dudes are not dudes at all, they are big freakin' pussies, and I'm sick and tired of hearing' 'em whine-whine-whine-WHINE all the time, like little baby girls.

"WHAAAA !!!!!!!! I'm affraid."

"WHAAAAA !!!!!!!!!. mommy and daddy will find out "

"WHAAAAAA !!!!!!!!! I might actually have to get a job !!!!!!!!! "

"WHAAAAAA !!!!!!!!! Someone might theive my identidy !!!!!! "

"WHAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!! I might loose the respect of my homophobic friends !!!!!!!!!!! "

" WHAAAAAAAA !!!!!! . I'm happy in the closet. (sniffle.Sniffle.) WHAAAAAA !!!!

..God, yes ... All I hear when these guys go ON AND ON about it is a high squeeky noise that is so irritating to me that I want to push them in a mud puddle and call them bad names. It brings out the worst in me. I never knew I could be such a bully, but these dudes are not dudes at all, they are big freakin' pussies, and I'm sick and tired of hearing' 'em whine-whine-whine-WHINE all the time, like little baby girls.

Hahaha. Oh no, we've degenerated this thread into middle-school level remarks. Good job :) My question to you is, why even bother asking a question when you have no willingness or capacity to understand the answer?

You know, I'm not now nor was I in the closet when I joined the site, and my decision to crop my face/head out of my public photos had nothing to do with any of the reasons so eloquently laid out by CalTrask2JimStark. For me it had everything to do with the town I live in and the gay community itself, not trying to hide or fit in with the outside world.

Maybe instead of passing sweeping judgments over a group of people you should consider that everyone's decisions and experiences in life might be a little different from yours. Too bad that same kind of attitude is what marginalized the gay community in the first place. :/

To be very clear... I'm not trying to defend staying in the closet. But you cannot expect everyone to be in the same place as you. You have NO idea what some of these people may be going through.

The way I see it going online to a gay site is like going into a gay bar...you wouldn't wear a bag over your head there, would you? Your homophobic friends, family, and coworkers are as likely to walk into a gay bar as they are to log on to RealJock. If you want anonymity go to Amazon.com.

But of course the reality is that this is a homophobic culture and fear exists even within "safe environments" and many will still seek refuge in the closet.

As a caveat, there are always ways of capturing someone's digital picture online...and if you're worried about somebody taking your amazing cock shot...why not just post an endearing smile?

There are some really good and interesting points here and some counter points.

The one that strikes me the most is the idea of hurting loved ones who are innocent bystanders to a married person coming out. It has a beautiful element of drama to it that I am drawn to as a story. I do know a handful of guys in this position.

At one point this was the norm, I mean guys getting married, having children, and having affairs on the side (or front).

I'm ONLY thinking out-loud here and not making a stand one way or the other, just curious:
But I wonder how protective should we be of our loved ones? I mean it sounds like a beautiful sacrifice on the one hand, but the world is not so neat and clean, and some kinds of suffering many-times leads to greater things. If there are gay people in the world wouldn't the honesty be more helpful in the long run towards real opportunities to practice understanding and grace, than silence?

People make mistakes, get married, or whatever, but move through and on. As someone who works in education I would rather have the meat of the tragedy of the coming out to work with towards developing understanding than a lie of a life and the seeming suburban "perfection." Divorce can be a greater opportunity to understand relationships and connections than a fake marriage (sometimes).

Please, please, please do not construe what I'm saying as a stand. I think there are many elements to this. For instance, it would be possible in the name of "truth" to ditch one's family and leave them high and dry in one's fear and pride, not facing anything but running. It would also be possible to stay married and let everyone know. There are many paths.

I don't think there is a formula for truth or happiness. Any absolute would be so broad as to inspire one to have to ask, "What does this really look like in practice?" (Like love your neighbor as yourself).

There is a fine line here in being out. I'm mostly with CalTrask and FastProf in the issue of being out.

If you live in a culture where you WILL be in danger by being out, I can understand that.

However, I found that since being out, I can't deal with people who aren't mostly because they want you to step at least halfway back in the closet with them. I'll never do that. Although I think PDA's are acceptable and I'll do it when it's appropriate, I don't think the idea of propriety should be ignored, regardless of whether its a gay or straight couple.

Additionally, I work in a huge company that does a lot of government work and I know a number of gays in the company, I only know one who is actually out besides myself. I don't walk around like Carson Kresley in the office because that's not who I am. On the other hand I never hold back in terms of pronouns, or any specifically gay comment. If they can make hetero comments, I can make gay ones. I've got the respect of my coworkers (virtually none of whom new any out gay men before me) and they don't expect me to hide who I am. Of course since I was out before I started at this company, if I sensed that I wouldn't be able to be myself, I'd not have accepted the job.

More of the fear of being out is based on internalized homophobia, and the fear of the unknown. The transition period of coming out can't be avoided, and the longer you wait the more difficult it is.

Madapollo,
ya know I love you as myself, but when it comes to no faced neigbors taking shots, and then blocking there profile for contact, I'm in the school of tough love.
But, yes - the recipe for truth in life IS love, contrary to what the chrstian coalition might have to say about that.

I'm a bit more Malcom X than Ghandi on these issues.

X

Multiple consonants said :-): "...Your homophobic friends, family, and coworkers are as likely to walk into a gay bar as they are to log on to RealJock..."

Exactly. This is what I don't get.

And, by the way, I doubt that any of us, including CalTrask, mean to imply that those guys who are in extremely sensitive homophobic work environments should disregard their own safety and sanity by blithely doing an "in your face" coming out.

It's just what kryszyk pointed out...worrying about your high school principle specifically coming into RealJock's website, doing an online search on your town, or going through each profile, profile by profile to sleuth out anyone who might be in his/her school is so far fetched, it's hard to take seriously.

Yes, I understand for those who fear this, even the remotest chance that this might happen is anxiety-provoking.

I'd worry more about that asteroid that will soon be targeting my home. :-)

My face is for friends. Many of the gents in this forum have seen it. I think they're friends, at least.

nnj - yes -I've seen it. He has a cute mug.

back to the drawing board -

I have been asked by associates at business meetings how I stay in such great shape, and I have no shame in telling them that I get a lot of my tips from RJ, and that if they want to know more read the forums. They are more fascinated than appalled, and one guy - a very succesful 'straight' guy I told logs on all the time now just to get work out tips. He brought it up at a meeting recently, and there were about ten other 'straight' guys there.

I mean really, all this shame is coming from a very inward place. If you act affraid of a dog, it's gonna attack, is my motto.

Besides, I think shame is like cancer. it can spread if believed in...

Yes - faspoof - I agree w/ you about the bar remark. you can't compare RJ to the bar scene. THIS IS A FITNESS site - for guys who want to be healthy in body AND mind - not a bar, for cryin' out laude !

Anyhoo,
I'll have my OJ now/ w a double shot of wheat grass, please...

NNJ... "...My face is for friends. Many of the gents in this forum have seen it..."

Yes, this is also understandable. And, your face is to me like an early morning sunrise over Half Dome...a revelation of rugged handsomeness and beauty.... (Seriously!)

How about that for poetic description?

:-)

Btw CalTrask, my profile is not hidden, unless you're not logged in to realjock. Only realjock members can view my profile, and there are private pics, all with faces. If it told you that my profile was somehow locked, it's probably because you got logged out of realjock.com. Try logging in again and visiting it if you're really that interested.

I have seen Rune's face pics and the reason they are not public is because they are too adorable for viewing by the crass public. If you want to see them, come over to my place. I've papered my bedroom wall with them.

You know, I don't really understand why this is such a big deal. If it's not having your face pic, it's not having it verified. And if it's not that, it's whining about the anatomy featured in a picture. And if you pass the picture standard, then you have to worry if you're masculine enough. And then if you pass the masculinity test, you have to pass the common courtesy test. It's so fuckin' gay.

Cal, you say that your decision to come out, ended up making you "well off." That's terrific but what if it had had the opposite effect? I've seen countless clients whose parents abandoned them when they came out and life has been extraordinarily difficult for them. I have utterly no reluctance in urging clients with parents who are likely to be unsupportive to delay their public declarations.

I also have two clients, mothers, who have sons who are likely transgendered in one case, gay in the other. They worry constantly about how to support them but keep them safe. This is just not a very simple issue for many people.

I don't mind saying that part of my coming out was also impulsively cutting myself off from my family's dole, but it certainly didn't make me well off, and now, 20-odd years later, I look at my brothers' lives and regret that I was quite so radical in my choice.

There is no one right thing for everyone to do about this....but, holy crap, having or not having a face pic on RJ is a triviality. I mean shyness is a good enough reason for many.

I'm even willing to show pictures of my parents. This is Mom and Dad on the night I was conceived.

You know, the resemblance is uncanny -- especially yo mama's smile. They must be very proud of you.

Well, my mom is a Swedish beauty, as you've so rightly recognized, so, we ate a lot of Swiss cheese which I think was good for my complexion. It's not all acid wash and formaldehyde, ya know.

QUOTE:I have seen Rune's face pics and the reason they are not public is because they are too adorable for viewing by the crass public. If you want to see them, come over to my place. I've papered my bedroom wall with them.

Finally, my years of lifting and cardio to drop the (majority of) my weight have paid off! I've now reached the high status of recieving compliments from strange hot guys on the internet. They told me it would be worth it, and they were right, it was worth every drop of sweat!

But really, well said. It would be wise to be able to step into another person's shoes before giving advice on life CalTrask, and not base everything simply on your own situation and experiences.

QUOTE:I don't mind saying that part of my coming out was also impulsively cutting myself off from my family's dole, but it certainly didn't make me well off, and now, 20-odd years later, I look at my brothers' lives and regret that I was quite so radical in my choice.

You cut ties with your family at 4 years old? Quite the independent type it seems :P

I have posted your pictures on silverdaddies.com, Rune.

er...uh...your left nipple looks vaguely familiar

Obscene Wish -

I understand your point of view. But I'm stickin' to my guns on this one. I think toughening it out is the best way to really become a man. I don't think this is about dollars and cents, or 'security'. It's about having integrity - wether you are 20 or 60... and standing on your own two feet.

It's also about creating positive social change. Hiding and shame are apathetic non-actions that do nothing but turn evolution back on the bottom end of the wheel.

btw - I need to repeat this : I did not voluntarily 'come-out' ... I was 'found out'. It was honestly a great relief. My bf and I at the time stuck it out for four years and worked very hard together... no regrets, and w/ out therepy I might add. ( Maybe that's what saved me.) Really, though - long walks in nature are the best cure for neurosis.

Honestly, I think this is about certain members not willing to pull their end of the bargain : Apathetic, weak - and lazy.

If you really want to be heard post your pic - The rest of us have put too much time and effort into keeping this sight a good place to be fouled up with dishonesty, cowardice and smarminess.

Of course, I'll expect more opposition to this posting, so c'mon jokers and cry babys - show me what ya got. Put 'em up ! put 'em up !

lol ...Oh, man ... where is Burt Lahr when you need him ? C'm mr. Larr ...
RISE !

I have a face pic, so I guess this post doesn't apply to me.

I didn't at first on RJ and then I read some of the bitching about it and thought - what the hell - I don't really care if someone 'outs' me. I'm a big boy and can deal with whatever comes my way. Plus putting it out there is one less obsticle to meeting people who I might befriend here.

----
That said, CalTrask , some of your comments are offensive nonetheless. I'm only out to a couple people. I'm married and have two kids. I'm in the process of seperating.

Put em' up!

First, (right hook) you never had to make the choice to 'come out'. So you never had to be responsible for the negatives that you experienced along the way. Overcoming them was like overcoming an enemy attack - it's apparent that it's a point of pride for you how well you did. The simple yet powerful viewpoint switch from 'they did this to me, and I'm going to fight back' to 'I did this to me and these consiquences are my creation' can take the pride right out of the equation. How to tell people, when to tell them, who to tell or not?? What impact will this have? Frankly, you've never been in the position that most closeted guys are in.

Oh that's right! Yes, yes you were in that position and what did you do - you stayed in the closet. It took someone else outing you. Please shut up on your calls to 'come out, their's no excuse!' It'd be different if you were just saying 'Hey, its safe to take the plung, theres a community here for you, you'll be alright'. No you're talking people down, and that's out of place coming from you.

Second, (left jab) your family sound like jerks. When I think about my family - its warm apple pie, Christmas Carols, building things together, playing in the snow, going to dance rehearsals, playing in the band, board game night - I don't give a crap about their money - they haven't got any!!! I worry about coming out, because I just don't want to damage my relations with them as people I enjoy being around. If I can avoid coming out, because I don't have to and I don't know what their reaction might be - why do it?? I will when I need to, and I don't think it's going to be a big deal to them. Unless I see some value to coming out to them, I'll delay.

Third, (bitch slap)some guys are bi. Take me for instance. I've muff dived 1000 times and liked every time - wasn't imagining it was an ass, 1/2" dick or a smelly hairy arm pit either! If you're bi and you're with a guy - are you lying to him, because you like girls too? When you're with a women, are you lying to her because you like guys?
Bi's can't win by your liar-liar-closets-on-fire litmus test. I wanted kids, I thought I could make a marriage work(its been 11 years, not a bad effort,really)and I enjoy having sex with her - but I still really want to have sex with guys, too. Which leads to:

Fourth, (Kick to the balls). Both you and Chucky are hot on the 'No Self-Esteem' low-life name-calling. But really, a wholly social act of having children and raising them is all about compromise and lowering your self-esteem enough to place some other people ahead of you. Call that 'family esteem'. If I chose as a higher priority to have kids rather than chase my dick around, I really don't want any shit from anyone about that. Other closeted guys are in the same position. Their trying to deal with m4m impulses and balance them with other priorities.

Lastly, (offer to hold cool cloth on your balls)I understand what you've said and it totally applies to some low-life no-self-esteem guys. But not all closeted guys or no-pic guys are like that.

*****applauding***** to OHhiker - you are the man!

Ohiker - LOL !



First off

I actually 'came-out' when I was about 16.
( this is somewhere in one of the forums ) , but they did not listen. It then took 4 yrs later ( soap opera music please ) for a friend of my families, an investors' son nonetheless, to break the news. THEN they listened.

Anyhow, - I'm finished on this subject . My family and I have healed the scars from those days, and my ship came in on my own terms and navigation.

Second,
I don't really get where you are coming from on the 'bi' stuff? Oh, was that about my posting about how we are all 'Bi' by nature and how sexuality plays into that. Well, yes - I still stand in the grey area there. I don't think it could be qualified as 'cheating' to be attracted to women too. I have had romantic relations with both and have seen women as women and men as men - both beautiful and perfect in their own way -
I have a bf now. He loves me for who I am, whatever that is I still choose not to 'define' . I don't over analyze my 'personality'.
But congrats on the 'muff diving' as you so eloquantly put it. LOL ! like I care !


Third, I don't think I'd punch anyone because their family qualified as 'jerks'. I dig my fam the way they are. They know they are 'my very own 'Tennenbaum' clan' -The tough love goes around a whole lot, and we laugh at our short comings. I like to think we are realistic. Each of us has made it on our own, and is an individual.
But congrats on your Hallmark Hall of Fame life. Really, a nice pat on the back, good ol' boy. Congrats on the kids too. Another pat on the back. I'd give you a cigar, but I don't smoke, unfortunately. Hell, I'll give ya the box, but you have to admit - it 'aint fair fightin' to kick a bloke because of what his family did or didn't do. Hell, call me an 'indian giver' - I'm takin' the box back !

fourth - my only priority is to speak my truth. Sorry it so offends you to hear it. I'm going to ignore your manipulative working of the 'family values' card. You have proven an unworthy opponent. besides,
kicking in the balls is for pussies.

Anyone else want to duke it - drop me a line. It is not fair to this forum to take up space with this

I stand my ground on pictureless profiles on RJ for once and all !

Peace

x

...yes, even to the PUSSIES and Pictureless.

'Pussy' is just a word. I kinda like it.

CS

I think there are a couple of things getting confounded here.

In this "forum" I appreciate the strong positions of my dear friend CalTrask2JimStark, and of Obscenewish, and others. They make for very interesting discussions.

I like to think through someone's reasoning and gently post counter points for the purpose of exploring the thinking more, without shutting anyone down. That is unless the thinking is really screwed or the person is being a total ass. Personal attacks aren't helpful.

All that being said, it is essential to live life with integrity, however that looks. But if you want to talk about it, understand that your notions are going to be questioned as they should be.

Honestly, unless you are being a moron on the forums, I couldn't care less about whether you have a face pick on this ridiculous site or not.

If you want to talk about coming out, that is fascinating and I would hope one is open to really exploring why or why not. There is no trump card for shutting down the conversation like money or family, sanity or security (especially if much of life is how you think about it if not even more than what you do).

As for myself, my family suspected I was out when I was very young and I outed myself shortly afterwards. They disowned me though, not for being gay (they didn't care) but because they thought I was mildly retarded (I'm not joking).

This discussion is getting at some sensitive spots, and I hope they help someone with any major life decision, like whether or not to put face picks up on a gay fitness site.

And as for coming out, I wish everyone who has had and enjoyed gay sex and everyone who identifies with gay stood up as it might make others realize how normal it is and then it would perhaps be less of a legal and social morality issue. I think this is one reason why it might matter to those of us who are out whether or not one is not. It is also interesting to face one's fears (or watch someone face them).

CalTrask2JimStark, You are right, you are a bully. With an overly inflated ego.

I always wondered why this was such a big issue with some guys here and I think I got my answer in this tread. LUST they want more photos to lust over :-)

Mike

Woo hoo! OhHiker floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee. You are the uber-masc man.

Now, Cal, let's get real. Nobody on this site comes close to posting up your volume of pictures. It would be as much a challenge for you to post LESS pictures as it is for some to post any at all.

CalTraskThe rest of us have put too much time and effort into keeping this sight a good place to be fouled up with dishonesty, cowardice and smarminess.

Don't give yourself too much credit. I read your posts and my eyes glaze over.

Essentially, your argument breaks down to "if you don't believe what I believe, you're wrong." That wouldn't have got you anywhere on the debate team. "This is my experience, so this is how it is" doesn't prove anything, either.

If anything pollutes this site, it's sanctimony. You haven't singlehandedly paved the road to equal rights, so get over yourself.

I had, when I first came to Cleveland, a brief affair with a fireman whom I once asked "So, are you out at work". His reply was that the last fireman in Cleveland who had come out was left to burn. Alas that his fear was real.

Do we suppose that all people without pictures are in mortal fear of their life? Surely not! Nonetheless, we all would do well to look at ourselves bravely in the looking-glass and to ask "what are you doing to improve the world?" For my fireman friend, his answer was such to more than compensate for his closetedness... and yet I still pity him. Campaign for social justice for gay people; volunteer; look at others with a more sympathetic eye. The world would be better if gay men approached one another in a spirit of tolerance, love and fraternity.

There is a certain sculpture in Cleveland --- the "Free" stamp --- which moves me every time I pass it:



To those of you still in chains: free yourselves! To those still insecure in the closet: absolution is in freedom!

Brothers, I wish you all well.

OHHiker: you're a brave man; our thoughts are with you.

CalTrask: your manifesto for change is a deeply moving one, and you are inspirational. Recollect, nonetheless, that "the quality of mercy is not strain'd".

Kryzsyk> going online to a gay site is like going into a gay bar...you wouldn't wear a bag over your head there, would you?

When I was first coming out, I was just as worried about who would see me walking into or out of the bar. (I suppose the parallel here is if someone uses your computer and sees RealJock.com or other gay sites in your history.)


fastprof> worrying about your high school principle specifically coming into RealJock's website, doing an online search on your town, or going through each profile, profile by profile to sleuth out anyone who might be in his/her school is so far fetched, it's hard to take seriously.

What about your priest...? Good way to find a date, no? (:


fastprof> your face is to me like an early morning sunrise over Half Dome...a revelation of rugged handsomeness and beauty.... (Seriously!)

No human compares to the Half Dome, so I think what you are saying is that NNJ is a god!

Now let me get back to being serious. I'm not picking on NNJ (and I know he'll understand my point), but I'm not sure why some people are willing to give NNJ a pass because he's shared with them his private pics which have his face photo. What this suggests is that the rational of some isn't the necessity of a public face photo, but for them to be able to see the face photo. Maybe it is they who are rearranging their sock drawer and rationalizing plattitudes...?

The bottom line is that everyone is in a different place in their life. If you live in NYC your situation is very different than if you live in Podunk in a red state. If you are a college student dependent on your parents it is very different than if you are independent and gainfully employed. If your parents are "progressive" it's very different than if they are neanderthals. If you are single you are in a completely different situation than someone who is married with kids.

Having said that, it is equally true that a photo on a gay site isn't likely to impact you in real life. But that's a "risk" that each person needs to figure out for themselves based on their situation. Even if you think they are choosing wrongly, it is also true that people grow and evolve with time. And that's what it takes. Time. Trashing at them is more likely to harden their current beliefs. Give them time... something I dare say most of us (even if not all of us, Caltrask) had.

CalTrask> I think toughening it out is the best way

Just because "that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger"...? But what if it does kill you? Isn't it better sometimes to "live to fight another day"?

OHhiker> I worry about coming out, because I just don't want to damage my relations with them as people I enjoy being around.

Since my post has been reduced to sayings: "those who mind don't matter, those who matter don't mind."

MadApollo> This discussion is getting at some sensitive spots, and I hope they help someone with any major life decision, like whether or not to put face picks up on a gay fitness site.

Clearly this conversation has gone beyond just the posting of face pics.

MadApollo> I wish everyone who has had and enjoyed gay sex and everyone who identifies with gay stood up as it might make others realize how normal it is and then it would perhaps be less of a legal and social morality issue.

Just another "Tragedy of the Commons".

Some of the most insecure people on here have face pics-read their forum posts-DUH

Until you've walked a mile in a man's moccasins-don't judge!

I was on over a hundered thousand underwear packages in the 80's if you need to see me so badly google me! I was in Macy's/Burdines as well 86-87.

It payed for a year and a half of college and I still get a free pair of whatever is new till this day.

It has nothing to do with insecurity!

caesarea4 said: "...Clearly this conversation has gone beyond just the posting of face pics..."

Yes, I have the curious dismay at seeing several of my online buddies here in the midst of a forum squabble. As an aside, I find that personally disquieting, just as I would if I had close friends arguing among themselves.

First, I think that deciding when to come out is a deeply personal decision that is easy for some, and very difficult for others. I realize that this was a tangent to the original post.

Let me bring that back to the original post.

Personally, I just make the assumption that people who join onto Real Jock, a forum for fit gay men to meet, converse, connect, are here to actually relate to other gay men with that interest. That's my assumption. That's why I am here.

While I have no issue with reading Forum posts from guys who have no Profile information, no pictures of any sort, and may actually respond to such a post, I am unlikely to engage in a dialog with a pictureless (not necessarily face pic), profileless person.

With regard to the original post, I have face pix up, even though I'm overwhelmed by the impression that I'm surrounded by other profiles from guys with more outstanding bodies, and handsome faces. I risk that ridicule by comparison with others because I want the other guys here who might want to connect at any level to know who I am.

That said, I totally understand that some might have issues that make them uncomfortable with posting face pix. I have RJ buddies who are in that situation, but they, as NNJFitandBi does, have a face pic posted in the Private section for his Buddies to see. I think that's a good way to go.

I think what bothers me about SOME who have neither face or any other pix posted is the creepy sensation I get at times about such people when they post. Not all, but some. For example, one former member of RJ, who has been thrown off the site twice, had no pictures or anything else of note on his profile, yet he was screaming and yelling at many of us on all sorts of different issues...and created posts that were troll-like, and felt as if he was stalking the hot guys on this site.

I think the area in which CalTrask and I are in agreement is those guys who are sort of like that, yet use all sorts of excuses why they have neither pictures (of any sort) nor text in their profiles up. That's what I meant in my previous post.

OHiker, that was an eloquent post. It was extremely moving. Towards the end of your post was the crux of the matter.

"...I understand what you've said and it totally applies to some low-life no-self-esteem guys..."

Those sorts of people frustrate you too. And you have that in common with a number of us here. However, I do understand what you say about family. Again, I don't want to hijack Rugger's thread any more than we have, but despite the fact that I am out and out and out....to everyone...it was not until last November that I came out to my 90 y.o. mother, and that delay was based upon many of the issues that you outline.

John

"it was not until last November that I came out to my 90 y.o. mother, and that delay was based upon many of the issues that you outline."

John, may I ask how that went for you?

If you don't want to post it here you could mail me. It is just for my own situation that I am interested. Also if you don't want to mail either, I am cool with that.

Mike

"Yes, I have the curious dismay at seeing several of my online buddies here in the midst of a forum squabble. As an aside, I find that personally disquieting, just as I would if I had close friends arguing among themselves."

Er, honestly, I'm not taking this very seriously, so I hope Cal doesn't think I meant any serious criticism. I thought he was bringing considerable levity to it himself.

I think it would be nice if everyone could post their face pic up front, but I'm really unwilling to burden 20-year-old college students, who are dependent on their parents, with fomenting social change at this point in their lives -- much less suicidal teenagers who have been kicked out of their parents' homes for being gay.

Tim, yo mama's neo-Marxism is staining your rhetoric.

By the way, I got my fucking face verified, so all of you pussies who are not verified need to grow up and get a life, be a man, throw off your chains and prove to the world you didn't steal your pictures from twinkieswiftude.com.