If 9/11 didn't happen, does anyone think the "Muslim issue" would even be an issue this election? Why is does the Christian Right always try use scare tactics to promote their agenda (especially considering the Christian past)??? And, why does someone's religion play such a large role in American politics???
VineyardHmo> why does someone's religion play such a large role in American politics???
I think the fear is that the politics will somehow follow the religion. And many of us share that fear. That's why we'd be suspicious of a Bible-thumping candidate, regardless of whether he is Christian... or Muslim.
This entire society is based off of Christianity for the most part, i'd like to say it wouldn't matter to people but unfortunately its a big deal even if not directly acknowledge.
Our calender is based on christian holidays (jews don't get school or work days off for Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashana, two biggest days).
Many of our laws are christian based. It matters
So even the slightest bit of saying someone is different, can scare people and deter them from voting for him. Sad but true
Given the example of how "Christians" have fucked up this country... a Muslim certainly couldn't do any worse...
Obama is NOT a Muslim... NOT a terrorist... NOT a racist. He is as patriotic as any of us, but he is also aware of the problems in this country.
When white people say he is not patriotic, or suggest he is Muslim, all of that is simple code for them that means "I'm not voting for a black man." Read between the lines.
It may be that people who try to relate Obama with Muslims are trying to rationalize their racism against blacks. It's not politically correct to dislike blacks, but right now disliking Muslims won't get you into much trouble. But I can't tell you for sure. People who think that Obama's middle name is a valid connection to Muslims are beyond what I'm capable of comprehending.
I think this so-called "Muslim issue" would probably have been a hot topic even if 9/11 hadn't happened because for years - even decades - Muslim extremism in the forms of groups like Hammas, Hizballah and al Qaeda has gotten the attention of the American media, and accordingly most of what we see (and in some cases presume to know) about Islam is it's most violent and unreasonable representations. That kind of thing was going on long before 9/11, and it would have indeed been brought to the table if a Muslim candidate had appeared.
Do I think that the Christian Right is milking it especially hard in these "post-9/11 days?" Absolutely... not just because "It's not Christian," but more because this particular election, more than any other that I can recall seeing or reading about, appears to be about selecting a person who is not only the political and military commander-In-Chief but also "America's moral leader." Both Republicans and Democrats have egg on their faces because of sex scandals, and gay marriage has already been approved in another state to the delight of some and the chagrin of others. These are not, perhaps the key issues facing the country and this election, but they are certainly the ones that seem to matter to the Christian Right. I may be wrong, but it is almost like they seem to think that these are signs that the country is weakening... that we got attacked for being who we were on 9/11/01, and that if these things are not addressed right now, we can be attacked for it again.
Just speculating on that last point, though...I honestly have no idea what is going on in their alleged minds.
VineyardHmo saidIf 9/11 didn't happen, does anyone think the "Muslim issue" would even be an issue this election? Why is does the Christian Right always try use scare tactics to promote their agenda (especially considering the Christian past)??? And, why does someone's religion play such a large role in American politics???
THANK YOU VineyardHmo!! I agree!
I have a GREAT Idea... Separation of church and state...
zsocerstar saidThis entire society is based off of Christianity for the most part, i'd like to say it wouldn't matter to people but unfortunately its a big deal even if not directly acknowledge.
Our calender is based on Christian holidays (jews don't get school or work days off for Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashana, two biggest days).
Many of our laws are christian based. It matters
So even the slightest bit of saying someone is different, can scare people and deter them from voting for him. Sad but true
I agree that someone's religion should not be a factor in if they are a good candidate, but I have to differ with you on the notion that U.S. laws are based on Christian notions.
I say this because Christianity although based on Judaism, at it's core had "no laws" like the Jewish Nation. It was based on faith and not law. Our Government and Laws are based on a fusion of Greek, Roman, and Jewish concepts. Israel had one of the earliest set of complex laws that governed everything from agriculture, to health, to finance, to reparations, to equality and social welfare.
Christianity never had any laws because it was never a nation like Israel. Christians only adopted the laws of the nations they were in. As far as Holidays, those were lifted from the Romans and in some cases the Jewish people. Christmas = the Roman Saturnalia, Easter = a fusion of Mediterranean fertility rites and the Jewish Passover. The early Christians were all Jewish so kept the Jewish Holy Days. When Gentiles converted to Christianity they were told they did not have to keep any Holy Days, but inherited a transformed Passover which became Communion.
Here is a quote and article about the Jewish influence on the U.S. constitution ..
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/government.html No nation has been more profoundly influenced by the “Old Testament” than America. Many of America’s early statesmen and educators were schooled in Hebraic civilization. The second president of the United States, John Adams, a Harvard graduate, had this to say of the Jewish people:
The Jews have done more to civilize men than any other nation…. They are the most glorious Nation that ever inhabited the earth. The Romans and their Empire were but a bauble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three-quarters of the Globe and have influenced the affairs of Mankind more, and more happily than any other Nation, ancient or modern
BTW, all that being said, I believe in freedom of religion but separation of church and state. I believe although Obama is a professed Christian, he embraces different people and even Gays equally. He understands the Constitution and Civil Rights.
Also Barack Obama is a strong believer of separation of Church and State:
http://www.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htmI'm a big believer in the separation of church and state. (Apr 2004) Rated 100% by the AU, indicating support of church-state separation. (Dec 2006)
ActiveAndFit> Our Government and Laws are based on a fusion of Greek, Roman, and Jewish concepts... Christians only adopted the laws of the nations they were in. As far as Holidays, those were lifted from the Romans and in some cases the Jewish people. Christmas = the Roman Saturnalia, Easter = a fusion of Mediterranean fertility rites and the Jewish Passover.
I think everything that you say is right... but misses the point that zsocerstar was getting at.
Christmas is not a legal holiday in the US because of anything Roman or to do with Saturnalia. Neither does Easter in the US have anything to do with the Mediterranean or Passover (other than indirectly). In fact, Easter is a legal holiday whereas Passover is not.
While these holidays have become secularized, they are Christian in origin (even if early Christians borrowed them from elsewhere) and that is why these are legal holidays. (And seemingly every year there is a rash of cases of municipalities funding/erecting Nativity scenes).
Philosophically this smacks of a violation of church and state, but pragmatically there is sense to it. The vast majority of people in this country are Christians. What's the point of holding classes if 80% of the students - or teachers - won't be there?
caesarea4 said ActiveAndFit> I think everything that you say is right... but misses the point that zsocerstar was getting at. While these holidays have become secularized, they are Christian in origin (even if early Christians borrowed them from elsewhere) and that is why these are legal holidays. (And seemingly every year there is a rash of cases of municipalities funding/erecting Nativity scenes).
Oh I understood what he was saying. Actually some of what I was saying was to tear away the notion that people really do those things for religious reason, but more for "popular reasons" like you are saying. Just because something is popular does not mean it is government sanctioned .. it just seems that way because it is, well, popular! One fact check though .. Easter is not really a "government" holiday as it always falls on Sunday which like Saturday is "conventionally" not a workday for many businesses. No place I ever worked for would give you Easter off unless you asked for it (seven day work places).
lol, see now I am wanting to talk too much. sorry.
Most of the Holidays in the U.S. are actually secular. Christmas is probably the only one that is really wearing a Christian "cloak" that people get off during a workweek. Look at the others (Federally recognized days off):
New Year’s Day Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr. Washington’s Birthday Memorial Day Independence Day Labor Day Columbus Day Veterans Day Thanksgiving Day Christmas Day
See? The one "religious" day is pretty much just a popular/commercial thing.
Now concerning other's ("Jewish" for instance) religious Holidays: Did you know that I observed the seven Hebrew festivals for 8 years straight including the Sabbath/Saturday sunset to sunset? (not chanukah or purim though just the ones from Leviticus ) The reason I bring that up, that maybe people don't know, is that you can do so with the protection of the government in relation to school and work. When I did so, I could always present a document from my church (that I was going to at the time) to remind people that I was afforded that right to religious observance under non-discrimination law. So the government will actually respect others known religious holidays even if they are not Christian or on the calendar. I never had a problem with it. Even the seven day festival of booths. At most I might have had to take some paid or non-paid vacation, but then again I got the Christmas off too.
So there you go. The government is more secular than people think, and more tolerant than people think. Now the average person on the street .. some are tolerant, some are not. (see I was going somewhere with all that!)
OK, one more thing .. I think people commonly convince themselves that because they do a certain thing religious wise, it has always been done that way. They sort of backwards interpret history based on what they know about society today. In fact sometimes they convince others too
The Real Story of ChristmasThe pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all and passed without incident.
After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution. Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.
NO CHRISTMAS for you founding fathers!
Here was a thread about "Are we a Christian Nation" http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/200557/ In there I rant a little about separation of church and state (with references) before going on to defend religious freedom ..
Seeing that the question is about being a Muslim....
Most modern day Christian faiths are a lot more tolerant than Muslim.
Up here in Canada, there was a furor when muslim groups demanded Shariah Law be enshrined in law as a legal form of justice! Yikes!
Several of the Muslims I've had conversations with over the last few years have acknowledged that Muslims look after their own. Few extend charity to non-Muslims. However, post 9/11 here's what's happening: http://www.montrealmuslims.ca/module-pagesetter-viewpub-tid-7-pid-2006.html
...sorry, haven't figured out how to properly embed a link.
meninlove said Seeing that the question is about being a Muslim....
Most modern day Christian faiths are a lot more tolerant than Muslim.
Up here in Canada, there was a furor when muslim groups demanded Shariah Law be enshrined in law as a legal form of justice! Yikes!
Several of the Muslims I've had conversations with over the last few years have acknowledged that Muslims look after their own. Few extend charity to non-Muslims. However, post 9/11 here's what's happening: http://www.montrealmuslims.ca/module-pagesetter-viewpub-tid-7-pid-2006.html
...sorry, haven't figured out how to properly embed a link.
There are groups of Christians who demand that their version of Christian law be codified. There has been a huge stink over the last few years about a state judge who erected a monument to the Ten Commandments and refused to take it down after a ruling by federal judges.
And the assertion that most Christian faiths are more tolerant than Islam is simply not true.
Auryn saidIf Obama was ever a Muslim, his public declarations to admit the contrary, as I know it from the Koran, give other Muslims the right to kill him.
Stop this foolishness. I'm tired of hearing about the data-less hypothesis about his being a Muslim. Enough already!
So, ActiveAndFit, why did Christmas become a Federal holiday in 1870?
MunchignZombie> the assertion that most Christian faiths are more tolerant than Islam is simply not true.
At a fundamentalist level what you say is true, but most Christians are not fundamentalists (so there's room for interpretation, modernization and growth) and "Christian countries" are largely secular.
But the point I am proving here, is that the U.S. was not established a "Christian Nation" If it were, there would not be controversy in the first place. And also the founding fathers as I have pointed out, established no religious holidays despite popular belief, and some if you follow my links in the other thread, were downright "heretical" by fundamentalist definitions. It is one thing to say that religious "laws" find their way into our system, but another to say our laws were designed to be or favor Christians. Do you understand the distinction I am making here?
BTW, I am now curious about how that decision was made 100 years or so after the fact. I am going to look into it later.
VineyardHmo saidIf 9/11 didn't happen, does anyone think the "Muslim issue" would even be an issue this election? Why is does the Christian Right always try use scare tactics to promote their agenda (especially considering the Christian past)??? And, why does someone's religion play such a large role in American politics???
Yes, it would be an issue even without 9/11. However, Obama is not a Muslim.
The Christian Right always use scare tactics because that's all it has.
Some people (most, unfortunately) are religious and religion is a common bond with which to relate to others who share the same or similar views.
The growing influence of religion, particularly in government, is very disturbing. Rational thought is on the decline and it makes me shudder.
I cannot believe that Barak Obama called Governor Palin a “Pig with lipstick!” How sexist is that. Obama is NOT a guy I want to become president of the American nation with over 350 million people. He won’t even apologize for that clearly sexist remark! What is his problem? He wants to raise taxes, he will not allow oil drilling, and he has no concrete solutions to solve any problems. At least McCain and Palin know how to act appropriately and have presented concrete solutions like allowing more drilling for oil which will help reduce the price of gas in the future. They also proposed alternate and clean fuel solutions such as Wind/solar power and more. I am voting for McCain and Palin this year, they earned my vote.
So what if Palin goes to a church that wants to pray for gay people. At least they do not preach Hate like Barak Obama's church does. I heard some clips of what Obama's Pastor said. He Calls us all racist! He condemns this country and all of us with it. Obama had listed to that guy preach nothing but racist hate for over 20 years and you think he does not believe what his pastor says is true? If He is not a Racist then why did he stay with Pastor White for 20 years?
BigSETXjock saidGiven the example of how "Christians" have fucked up this country... a Muslim certainly couldn't do any worse...
Obama is NOT a Muslim... NOT a terrorist... NOT a racist. He is as patriotic as any of us, but he is also aware of the problems in this country.
When white people say he is not patriotic, or suggest he is Muslim, all of that is simple code for them that means "I'm not voting for a black man." Read between the lines.
Oboma Is sexist, is he Racist too?
I cannot believe that Barak Obama called Governor Palin a “Pig with lipstick!” How sexist is that. Obama is NOT a guy I want to become president of the American nation with over 350 million people. He won’t even apologize for that clearly sexist remark! What is his problem? He wants to raise taxes, he will not allow oil drilling, and he has no concrete solutions to solve any problems. At least McCain and Palin know how to act appropriately and have presented concrete solutions like allowing more drilling for oil which will help reduce the price of gas in the future. They also proposed alternate and clean fuel solutions such as Wind/solar power and more. I am voting for McCain and Palin this year, they earned my vote.
So what if Palin goes to a church that wants to pray for gay people. At least they do not preach Hate like Barak Obama's church does. I heard some clips of what Obama's Pastor said. He Calls us all racist! He condemns this country and all of us with it. Obama had listed to that guy preach nothing but racist hate for over 20 years and you think he does not believe what his pastor says is true? If He is not a Racist then why did he stay with Pastor White for 20 years?
If Senator Obama called Governor Palin "A pig with lipstick" then he actually does deserve to be President of the United States.
As I travel down the back roads, of this home I love so much, Every carpenter and cowboy, every lame man on a crutch.. They're all talking about a feeling, or a taste that's in the air, They're all talking about this mighty wind, that's blowing everywhere,
Oh a mighty winds a blowin', it's kickin' up the sand, It's blowin' out a message to every woman, child and man Yes a mighty winds a blowin', cross the land and cross the sea, It's blowin' peace and freedom, it's blowin' equality.
(The Folksmen) From a lighthouse in Barr Harbor, to a bridge called Golden Gate, From a troller down in Shreveport, to the shore of one great lake, There's a star on the horizon, and it's burning like a flame, It's lighting up this mighty wind, that's blowin' everywhere,
Oh a mighty winds a blowin', it's kickin' up the sand, It's blowin' out a message to every woman, child and man Yes a mighty winds a blowin', cross the land and cross the sea, It's blowin' peace and freedom, it's blowin' equality.
(Mitch & Mickey) When the blind man sees the picture, when the deaf man hears the word, When the fisherman stops fishing, when the hunter spares the herd, We'll still hear the wondrous story, of a world where people care, The story of this mighty wind that blowin' everywhere
Oh a mighty winds a blowin', it's kickin' up the sand, It's blowin' out a message to every woman, child and man Yes a mighty winds a blowin', cross the land and cross the sea, It's blowin' peace and freedom, it's blowin' equality. Yes it's blowin' peace and freedom, it's blowin' you and me'
Watch the video (or read the transcript) of the Obama interview with George Stepanopoulos from a few days ago. In this interview, Obama actually bumbles along - and admitted he is or was a muslim. Stepanopoulos was soft peddling along with Obama - and reminded him he is a Christian instead. Obama then agreed. Question - why did Obama say he was a muslim if he isn't one?
If you'd have watched the interview, Jockbod, you'd have gotten the point that he was talking about the fact that McCain wasn't trying to pretend he is/was Muslim.
Maybe you should actually watch the clips before trying to talk about them, hm?
I did watch and I know what I saw. How artfully you twisted your words here. And even though Stephanopoulos soft peddled the interview - he had to press Obama to admit that McCain never once said Obama was a muslim. Again - it was Obama who said he was a muslim until his friendly interviewer helped him correct his statement. Afterall - Obama is a Christian, right? I mean - he did faithfully attend services with the hate filled Rev. Wright - and gave over $20,000.00 to the good reverend over the years - right?
Jockbod48 saidI did watch and I know what I saw. How artfully you twisted your words here. And even though Stephanopoulos soft peddled the interview - he had to press Obama to admit that McCain never once said Obama was a muslim. Again - it was Obama who said he was a muslim until his friendly interviewer helped him correct his statement. Afterall - Obama is a Christian, right? I mean - he did faithfully attend services with the hate filled Rev. Wright - and gave over $20,000.00 to the good reverend over the years - right?
Why keep attacking Obama over his former minister as being "hate filled" But yet you support Palin who is indeed "hate filled" herself. She is against gays, against giving gay partnerships the same rights as everyone else. Are you self hating or what?
I cannot believe that Barak Obama called Governor Palin a “Pig with lipstick!” How sexist is that. Obama is NOT a guy I want to become president of the American nation with over 350 million people. He won’t even apologize for that clearly sexist remark! What is his problem? He wants to raise taxes, he will not allow oil drilling, and he has no concrete solutions to solve any problems. At least McCain and Palin know how to act appropriately and have presented concrete solutions like allowing more drilling for oil which will help reduce the price of gas in the future. They also proposed alternate and clean fuel solutions such as Wind/solar power and more. I am voting for McCain and Palin this year, they earned my vote.
So what if Palin goes to a church that wants to pray for gay people. At least they do not preach Hate like Barak Obama's church does. I heard some clips of what Obama's Pastor said. He Calls us all racist! He condemns this country and all of us with it. Obama had listed to that guy preach nothing but racist hate for over 20 years and you think he does not believe what his pastor says is true? If He is not a Racist then why did he stay with Pastor White for 20 years?
KD
Sexist, MY ASS!!!!! Grow a pair, why don't you!
What is different when McFuckstick says a lipstick comment about Hillary when he criticized the health care proposals by her and the Democrats when said that the proposal announced by Hillary is "eerily" similar to the plan she proposed in the 1990s. He then added, "I think they put some lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig" (New York Times, 10/12).
Tell me, KD, in typical Republican fashion, why is that any different than what Obama just said about the Mother-Moose Hunter-Maverick, Palin???
Earned your vote??? Did you even know of Palin BEFORE McCain asked her to be a running mate?? HIGHLY doubtful. So just what exactly has she done to earn your vote...besides being a mother-moose hunter-(self-proclaimed) maverick??
To say that she's a pig with lipstick is way to kind.....she's just a f'ing pig...just like McCain.
"ST. LOUIS, Mo. - Sen. Barack Obama's foes seized Sunday upon a brief slip of the tongue, when the Democratic presidential nominee was outlining his Christianity but accidentally said, "my Muslim faith."
"The three words -- immediately corrected -- were during an exchange with ABC's George Stephanopoulos on "This Week," when he was trying to criticize the quiet smear campaign suggesting he is a Muslim.
"But illustrating the difficulty of preventing false rumors about his faith from spreading, anti-Obama groups within one hour of the interview had sliced it out of context and were sending it around via email. They also were blogging about it.
"Mr. Obama, who is a Christian and often proudly speaks about how his faith has influenced his public service, said he finds it "deeply offensive" that there are efforts "coming out of the Republican camp to suggest that perhaps I'm not who I say I am when it comes to my faith."
I think it's sad when someone makes a verbal slip and you get a Coulterbot toeing the line on this website.
Also, even if we started drilling TODAY in the SE US, oil wouldn't even be available for at a minimum of 5 years....10 years in ANWR....and that's if we started TODAY. The amount of oil that is produced wouldn't even have an impact on global prices for oil....especially seeing as OPEC could just as easily reduce the amount of oil they produce to offset the drip in the bucket that those sites would produce. Ignorance is not attractive.
But Sarah Palin IS a pig wearing lipstick. If I had kids, I wouldn't trust her to babysit them, that's for sure. So far she's raised a slut and a junkie who's been shipped off to Iraq to dry out.
Its funny how all the white supremacists lie and fool themselves and think everyone is going to listen to their blather. They think if people who were oppressed bring up that fact and denounce it then they are racist. What insane hypocrisy.
Q:Whats the difference in a gay white supremacist and a pig with lipstick? A:Soiled bed sheets and a pointy white hood!
dodgy saidI'm more concerned with McCain being a "Manchurian Candidate" , who knows how they brainwashed him.
...seems like there's less and less of it to wash these days. he can't seem to remember anything correctly and more often than not has to ask his crew what his thoughts are on something.
BigSETXjock said When white people say he is not patriotic, or suggest he is Muslim, all of that is simple code for them that means "I'm not voting for a black man." Read between the lines.
Quoted for truth.
flexonyouI cannot believe that Barak Obama called Governor Palin a “Pig with lipstick!” How sexist is that.
As for fear of Muslims...if you were a gay man living in Iran you might have reason to fear them. Here, at this point, not so much. Keep some perspective people.
Extreme Christians are oppressive, extreme muslims are absolutely rabid, I wouldn't want anyone in there who is comfortable with the rabid side. It's bad enough we elect Christians.
(see I was going somewhere with all that!)
