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Hi Guys, I was wondering if I should keep milk in my diet. I've noticed when I mix my whey protein powder with milk it tends to make me look and feel bloated. I've heard from a few guys that say dairy products such as milk is counterproductive to your diet especially if you wish to get lean and defined.
Thanks for your input,
Vince

Vince,

Great question! It will be interesting to see what the more experience weight lifters have to say. Just my take, for years i would mix water with my whey protein drink before a workout and had fruit for breakfast. About 6 months ago, i switched to two cups of 2% milk with cereal for breakfast and have about 16-21 OZ 2% milk with my whey protein. For the first 2-4 days (even if i go off for a couple of days) i do feel really bloated. I have not noticed a change in my physique BUT just as important i do have more energy to complete my workouts and thus work harder. Remember, though - i drink the shake before my workouts.

A rather large portion of my diet consists of dairy, including milk.

Certainly you want to limit fat consumption if you want to be lean and defined, so whole milk, cream, etc., aren't anything you should be consuming in volume... But skim or even 1% milk shouldn't be a problem.

Personally, I can't stand protein shakes mixed with water. Even if I add egg whites, the consistency makes drinking them feel like a chore rather than something refreshing.

As with everything else, your body may react somewhat differently to milk than other people. The real answer to your question will probably come from personal experimentation and observation of the results.

BTW - I also suspect certain ingredients in protein shakes (not necessarily the milk it might be mixed with) are what cause bloating. I can't even go near protein shakes sweetened with sucralose, for example.

LOL, it's not the milk making you feel bloated, but those recycled Chinese Newspapers you are mixing into it!!

Again,
discuss this with you doctor. Drinking a lot of milk if you are concerned about cancer and heart disease or arthritis is a bad idea. Calcium in milk will drain the body of vitamin D which is a cancer fighter. Even if the milk is supplemented with vit D, there is still too much calcium in cows milk to offset it.
Milk is often pitched as a great source of Calcium. It is not. Yes, it has a high calcium content, but the body cannot utilize it, in fact, consumption of cows milk actually leaches calcium from the bones! Because the cows milk is highly acidic, the body needs to buffer it with more internal calcium than you get from the milk. The 10-1 ratio of calcium to magnesium found in milk is insanely high and devestating to the body.
The milk of every species of mammal is unique and specifically tailored to the requirements of that animal. For example, cows' milk is very much richer in
protein than human milk. Three to four times as much. It has five to seven times the mineral content. However, it is markedly deficient in essential fatty acids when compared to human mothers' milk. Mothers' milk has six to ten times as much of the essential fatty acids, especially linoleic acid.
(Incidentally, skimmed cow's milk has no linoleic acid). I think the extra protein is why it why it is so appealing to body builders but milk is full of other things besides protein. Hormones, puss, white blood cells and antibiotics are all allowed under the FDA's guidelines.

In the largest study of its kind, men who drank non-fat or low-fat milk had a higher risk of prostate cancer compared to men who drank whole milk. But this was only for localized and low-grade types of prostate cancer. The fat bit is confusing –- you’ll have to balance the increased prostate cancer risk of non- and low-fat milk with the increased heart disease risk of whole milk. Or you could just drink milk alternatives.

I switched to soy milk a long time ago after my doctor informed me that the phlegm i felt in my throat after drinking milk or dairy was an allergic reaction to the casein in dairy products. He also advised me to follow a low protein diet with the majority of nutrients coming from plant sources. Again, Diabetes, cancer and heart disease all run on my fathers side of the family. I am at risk for a number of diseases based on my genetics. The only way to offset my risks are by balancing them with lifestyle choices. Not that I wont get cancer or heart disease, but my chances of surviving aggressive treatments will be better with a modified lifestyle.

I have said this before but it is important. Building a big muscular frame is remarkably different from having a healthy body and internal organs. It is important that you realize there are always alternative ways to get the results you want without jeopardizing your health. What works for one person may not be good for you. If you are bloating, your body is telling you something, often that is the symptom of a milk allergy. A doctor should be able to advise you on a good plan of action.

mnjock2003 - Your comments are interesting to me, in that I have noticed that my body reacts differently to different *brands* of milk.

I've always speculated that there is a difference in milk composition among different breeds of cattle. I imagine that, combined with the diet and conditions in which the cattle live also affect milk quality and composition. Several (but not all) types of organic milk that I've tried seem particularly easy for my body to digest (not to mention that I think some taste dramatically better).

I've already read that lactose tolerance varies, even among intollerant individuals, based on the type of lactose in the dairy product... so it probably follows that other compounds in the milk will vary as well.

BTW - "but milk is full of other things besides protein. Hormones, puss, white blood cells and antibiotics are all allowed under the FDA's guidelines."

Indeed. But just about everything we eat has at least some nasty stuff in it. Soy products have phytoestrogens, and some suspect the reason soy products may lower the risk of prostate cancer is that they also can slightly lower testosterone in sensitive individuals. And how many guys on this forum eat canned tuna?

That's one reason it's important to have a widely varied diet. There is no one perfect food. Consuming a variety of foods balances out the positives and negatives of each dietary component.

I've been experimenting with almond milk as well. It actually tastes better in coffe and tea lattes than skim milk or soy. But you have to be careful...as it triggered a dormant nut allergy in a friend of mine!

If you are looking to put on size, use milk! It's great!

To lean out, I say cut out A LOT of the milk because of that bloating you talk about.

I can't drink any milk. Damn that lactose intolerance I have now.

doesnt whey protein comes from milk?

iskandar saiddoesnt whey protein comes from milk?

It does, yes.
Whey and casein are the two types of protein in milk.(87% water, 3.5% protein, 3.5 to 5% fat, and the rest is milk sugar aka. lactose)
Casein is used to make glue (why a cow is on elmers glue) and bind stuff like cheese together. (The harder the cheese, the more casein.) Generally , it is what causes the intolerance and phlegm too as it promotes histamine production.
Body builders love it because it is slow to break down and slows protein break down in the body.

Human beings are the only species (other than house cats) to consume milk past childhood. We are also the only species to consume the milk of another species.

There are pro's and cons to all the food that we eat. But with all the milk mustache crap ads and the dairy lobbyists eager to make dairy a "health" food... it just seems to have blurred some peoples judgement and ability to use objective thought regarding the matter. Much of what you think about milk is programmed in your head from when you were a child in kindergarten having a milk and snack break.

Humans DO get disease from consuming dairy, the cholesterol and saturated fat found in dairy can cause disease and kill us.

Lactose intolerance is a reality for 75% of the world's population
If you are lactose intolerant, which many people are, discuss this with a nutritionist or a doctor, not body builders.

[quote]
Human beings are the only species (other than house cats) to consume milk past childhood. We are also the only species to consume the milk of another species.

There are pro's and cons to all the food that we eat. But with all the milk mustache crap ads and the dairy lobbyists eager to make dairy a "health" food... it just seems to have blurred some peoples judgement and ability to use objective thought regarding the matter. Much of what you think about milk is programmed in your head from when you were a child in kindergarten having a milk and snack break.

Humans DO get disease from consuming dairy, the cholesterol and saturated fat found in dairy can cause disease and kill us.
[/quote]

Isn't this stance somewhat extreme? This is practically like equating dairy consumption with smoking. Virtually everything we eat can cause disease. Animal products in general aren't very healthy. Vegetarians are well proven to have dramatically lower risk of heart disease. And, actually, a lower risk of all kinds of other health problems.

The guy is asking for input on milk in a general sense. He isn't saying he is lactose intollerant. Let's not lose perspective here.

actually 99 per cent of the population is lactose intolerant there are only 2 tribes on the planet that are not. Everyone else has varying degrees.

In the context of your argument I disagree with alot of the comments you raise on the health benefit of milk as a source when so many are so eager to stick whey protein in their body which is just an extraction of milk. You also site soy as an excellent alternative but due to the initial screw ups in GM farming methods their is no way they can any longer classify soy as non gm as cross pollination occurred.

I dont disagree with your comments on Vit D nor the sentiment of your argument but I just feel you are overplaying the facts in relation to the impact.
There is a hell of alot of research going on in this area at the second anyway

The only thing I would say really on the subject is go careful as if you are seriously consuming the milk as I was its very easy to push yourself over your own tolerance level and for some unbeknown reason even if you cut back the tolerance doesnt tend to re-adjust. the same can be said for using whey protein tho.

As for using milk when cutting again if you are bloating then its your bodies intolerance but other that aside there is no reason why you shouldnt consume milk on a cut

mnjock2003 said...Milk is often pitched as a great source of Calcium. It is not. Yes, it has a high calcium content, but the body cannot utilize it, in fact, consumption of cows milk actually leaches calcium from the bones!...

OK, now you got my attention. I've heard this before, and I never get source citations. With such a broad declaration, you'll have to source this, because according to the FDA milk is a good source of calcium.

See also: http://www.calciuminfo.com/about/foodsources.aspx

Not that I believe that the FDA isn't immune from the dairy lobby, but such a relationship is not a valid proof of your stance.

This issue is separate from lactose intolerance and cholesterol and fat discussions.

See also:
http://osteoporosis.about.com/od/dietsupplements/a/Calcium_Food.htm

Skim milk, yogurt, cheese, etc. are listed as sources of the most absorbable percentage of calcium (further down the page in the absorption table).

mickeytopogigio saidSee also:
http://osteoporosis.about.com/od/dietsupplements/a/Calcium_Food.htm

Skim milk, yogurt, cheese, etc. are listed as sources of the most absorbable percentage of calcium (further down the page in the absorption table).

Mickey... certainly there is evidence on both sides of the subject.

The Dairy Council used to advertise that "Milk builds strong bones". They were sued in court to prove it, and with all the big-money research, they simply couldn't. So the courts ordered the slogan stopped, for false advertising.

Now they keep it vague: "Milk does a body good".
What good? The Dairy Council won't actually say.

After looking at 34 published studies in 16 countries, researchers at Yale University found that countries with the highest rates of osteoporosis “including the United States, Sweden, and Finland” are those in which people consume the most meat, milk, and other animal foods. This study also showed that African Americans, who consume, on average, more than 1,000 mg of calcium per day, are nine times more likely to experience hip fractures than are South African blacks, whose daily calcium intake is only 196 mg. Says McDougall, “[O]n a nation-by-nation basis, people who consume the most calcium have the weakest bones and the highest rates of osteoporosis. ... Only in those places where calcium and protein are eaten in relatively high quantities does a deficiency of bone calcium exist, due to an excess of animal protein.”

From medicine.net
"It turns out that the relationship between the proteins in dairy products and the calcium in bones is a rocky one. First of all, calcium appears to be ultimately pulled from bones to escort digested animal protein from any source -- not just dairy products -- on its trek through the body. Since the average American's diet is protein-heavy to begin with, some experts say that eating lots of dairy foods may actually cause people to lose calcium. "When you eat a protein food, such as milk, you may be swallowing calcium, but you turn around and excrete calcium in your urine," says Donna Herlock, MD, spokeswoman for the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, a nonprofit advocacy group opposed to milk consumption.

To buttress her point, Herlock points to a portion of the Harvard Nurses' Health study published in the June 1997 issue of the American Journal of Public Health. The study found that women who ate lots of dairy products had higher rates of bone fractures than women who rarely touched the stuff. It suggested that drinking more milk didn't provide any substantial protection against hip or forearm fractures in middle-aged and older women, writes Diane Feskanich, ScD, a professor at Harvard Medical School in Cambridge, Mass., and the study's lead author. "We considered the possibility that dairy protein was responsible for the increase in risk of hip fractures," she says."

mnjock2003 saidFrom medicine.net
"It turns out that the relationship between the proteins in dairy products and the calcium in bones is a rocky one. First of all, calcium appears to be ultimately pulled from bones to escort digested animal protein from any source...says Donna Herlock, MD, spokeswoman for the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, a nonprofit advocacy group opposed to milk consumption.

In all fairness I haven't had a chance to review your short list of sources, but this one, by the Physicians Committe for Responsible Medicine, is a dubious one. In their zeal to repudiate the use of animal sources of food, they, it appears, will cite studies that support this claim while other studies contradict this.

http://www.acsh.org/factsfears/newsID.227/news_detail.asp

I'm gathering you are a vegetarian. I can certainly see some moral prerogatives for this. However, animal sources of food, despite its moral implications, are unlikely to be the cause of disease to the extent these advocacy groups insist.

Other sources?

You know, at the end of the day you just have to decide what works for your own body and with your own genetic dispositions.
After some bad experiences with personal trainers suggesting my diet regime, i consulted a doctor who recommended the exact opposite and I have never felt better.
I think it is better to be mindful of what is good for your entire bodies health and look beyond what is just good for muscles.

mickeytopogigio said[quote][cite]mnjock2003 said[/cite]From medicine.net
"url]

I'm gathering you are a vegetarian. I can certainly see some moral prerogatives for this. However, animal sources of food, despite its moral implications, are unlikely to be the cause of disease to the extent these advocacy groups insist.

Other sources?

Well the Harvard and Yale sources should strike you as non biased as should the dairy council losing its lawsuit.
And , to be honest, none of this is based on my moral stance. My physician is who made the recommendations to move from my vegetarian diet to a vegan one if I wanted to lessen my chances of getting cancer, diabetes and heart disease that run in my family.
And yes, both sides or the coin are sticky with people who have an agenda.

I dunno what milk you drink but Whole milk has 3.5% fat, 4.5% carbohydrate, 3% protien

all that milk is bad propaganda comes straight from PETA whom I would not believe a word from....

http://www.milksucks.com/

From wikipedia.com Cow milk contains, on average, 3.4% protein, 3.6% fat, and 4.6% lactose
Are you maybe referring to lactose as carbs?

I actually quoted it as having 10% protein,.. It has less, my bad.
Otherwise, what is different? Lactose is milk sugar and most of it(87%-88%) is water.
I am not quoting PETA, so don't even go there with me.

mnjock2003 saidFrom wikipedia.com Cow milk contains, on average, 3.4% protein, 3.6% fat, and 4.6% lactose
Are you maybe referring to lactose as carbs?

I actually quoted it as having 10% protein,.. It has less, my bad.
Otherwise, what is different? Lactose is milk sugar and most of it(87%-88%) is water.
I am not quoting PETA, so don't even go there with me.

Here's hoping milk was 10% protien



I was referring to the puss quote is from peta's campaign to influence school children along with eggs are chicken periods

mickeytopogigio said[quote][cite]
I'm gathering you are a vegetarian. I can certainly see some moral prerogatives for this. However, animal sources of food, despite its moral implications, are unlikely to be the cause of disease to the extent these advocacy groups insist.

Other sources?

Mickey.
Visit any cancer website.
Visit any website about cholesterol , heart disease, diabetes, etc. and you will find a plethora of guidelines regarding animal food sources. Most of the studies deduce that animal products, in the form of saturated fat and cholesterol, are toxic to the human body. I am somewhat amazed that this is at all surprising. The first advice any doctor gives is to lower your animal fat intake and cholesterol.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=63151

http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/articles/Truth.shtml
http://www.lowering-cholesterol.biz/high-cholesterol-foods.htm
http://www.webmd.com/prostate-cancer/news/20050317/high-cholesterol-may-speed-prostate-cancer
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1047279704003370
http://www.hms.harvard.edu/news/pressreleases/bwh/0703animalfatsbreastcancer.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE1DA1630F930A25751C1A966958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Can you tell me any other species that has to cook or pasteurize their animal based diet before ingesting it to avoid becoming ill?

Okay, don't be disingenuous...on topic, your repudiation was against milk's CALCIUM source. Don't change the subject. You're smarter than this, and so am I.

mnjock2003 saidWell, the Harvard and Yale sources should strike you as non biased as should the dairy council losing its lawsuit...

To be fair to you, I'll look into the Yale and Harvard studies; however, bias isn't the only issue. Unbiased studies have their problems as well...I'm just saying.

As far as the Dairy Council losing its lawsuit...okay, that's weak. NOT being able to prove a value in a court isn't the same thing as not having value. I'll attempt to find that decision, and consider the wording. I doubt the conclusions were false advertising.

And, for the record, I drink skim milk. A large proportion of your links are about fat and cholesterol. My cholesterol level is fine.

And here we go again.

mickeytopogigio saidOkay, don't be disingenuous...on topic, your repudiation was against milk's CALCIUM source. Don't change the subject. You're smarter than this, and so am I.

You said that animal sources are "unlikely to cause disease to the extent " my references stated. I pulled sources disputing your assertion that it is not that bad.
As to the extent of the calcium debate, which is a small part of my original post, I have listed the studies (Harvard, Yale, etc.) showing that too much animal protein and milk drinking actually pull calcium from the bones and make them porous. Not that milk doesn't have calcium. You quoted another source (fda) saying the opposite. I don't trust the FDA and you don't trust my sources. oh well. We will both have to believe what we want based on different studies and recommendations from health professionals. I have discussed this with my DR. that is what is most important to me. I am lactose intolerant so it is not as though I will start drinking milk anyways. If you love it and you feel that it is making you healthy, great. I was simply presenting the other side.


The original topic was, does milk do a body good?
My answer is not always.

I found a great brand of milk that I swear by. Its called Mootopia and they sell it here at HEB. It is lactose free and has 60% less sugar, 75% more protein and 35% more calcium than normal milk.

I only drink milk with cereal. I have heard various things about dairy and how good it is for you. We are one of the only animals that continues to drink milk after we have been weened, so ther is question about how healthy it is. Personally, I can't give up dairy, but I respect the dangers of it (bloating included). On the flip side, soy is not really that great for you and the protein is not broken down in an effective way for building mass. I do like almond milk, but have you ever tried to milk an almond?

mickeytopogigio saidAnd, for the record, I drink skim milk. A large proportion of your links are about fat and cholesterol. My cholesterol level is fine.

Skim milk is what is linked to advanced prostate cancer, not whole milk.
http://www.revolutionhealth.com/blogs/juliesilvermd/prostate-cancer-and-m-10351
[url]http://www.lvh.org/lvh/Your_LVH/LVH_News/Health_in_the_News%7C3321[/url]
Again, this may not be in issue for you. My Grandpa died of prostate cancer and my father is in his last months battling the same cancer. Everybody is genetically different which is why milk , skim or whole, is not good for everyone.

and RBY, not helping.

Thanks for all your input guys. Let me say I think I do have an small allergy or intolerance to dairy. I acquired adult asthma at 30 and I know every time I drink milk or consume ice cream I can be full of phlegm and wheezy. It's probably a reaction to the casein you refer to MNJock.
As I started to train more, many guys including fitness trainers advised me to drink more milk as it would help me in my goal of putting on more muscle mass.I tried it and seemed to work in varying degrees of success-however, as I said previously, it also made me feel and look bloated.
Last week at work, I drank a protein shake made with 2% milk shortly before I headed to the gym. As I headed out the door one of my co-workers commented that I should do more ab work because I was starting to get a belly. It wasn't a belly-it was bloating. Besides that, I had cramping and terrible gas pains--ouch.
So I wondered, is it the milk or perhaps the whey protein I'm using? I'm currently using Serious Mass and BSN's Protein Powder. I think it's probably the dairy but I'll experiment a bit more just to be sure. This past week I gave up the dairy and I'm just using water with the protein powder. It doesn't taste as great but so far, no bloating.

Vince

mnjock2003 said

Can you tell me any other species that has to cook or pasteurize their animal based diet before ingesting it to avoid becoming ill?

I eat eggs raw every morning in a protein shake and have yet to become seriously ill. If I were to eat the eggs, meat or milk straight from the source any food borne bacteria would not have time to develop to unsafe levels.

Therefore I'd like to propose that the cooking or pasteurisation is a culturally evolved method of food preservation. Like any form of medicine designed to extend human life spans. Were humans meant to live to an average of 80 years certainly not. Instead of evolution by natural selection humans have learned to manipulate the environment including food sources to increase their chance of survival

It's not like we don't process plants food sources to increase their digestibility and nutrient availability.

So because humans have evolved further than other species it make an argument for regressing. Humanity does a whole host of things I've yet to see any other species come close too.


You can argue milk is designed for a calf which doubles it's weight in 3 weeks or whatever. But humans don't soley subside on milk and we process it preserving it fortifying it and removing the extra fat.

mnjock2003 saidand RBY, not helping.

Sorry!

mnjock2003 saidSkim milk is what is linked to advanced prostate cancer, not whole milk.

Okay, I read the link. At best, it's a light link. The word used in the article is "slight."

I'll have to make the declaration, for the sake of the OP: Although a no-no for the lactose intolerant, skim milk is a great source of protein and calcium. Some studies have demonstrated some warnings for those people who have a family tendency toward prostate cancer, but like all things, moderation is the key. Please enjoy your milk. Toss away the cow if you must, but don't throw away the milk.

RBY71 saidSorry!

Dude, never apologize. What fun would this be without an audience?

I don't drink milk myself. I drink rice milk if I want the texture or look of milk for certain foods such as having it with cereal. It is not in the same class with the estrogen producing problems like soy has. And personally I really dig the flavor of rice milk better.

Calcium citrate is a good calcium supplement to take for adults. I take about 1g a day in pill form.

This forum has been very informative.

Thanks to all that have posted some great info.

damn you have found an unbiased form of research wow its the Holy Grail!!!! they get just as many grants and funding from a variety of sources

You mention toxins and cancers due to animal sources yet there are equaly as many from plant sources.

Long and the short of it is balanced diet. You mess up that balance and try to force the body to develop in a way which it is not normally programmed to do then there are consequences.

re the whey protein, bloating and the worst thing of all protein farts uggggghhhhh I find the only way I can avoid them is to use soy protein but a its expensive and b half the population believe I will get moobs if I use it and have to change my name to Barbara! (even the whey proteins that claim to have lactase added were of limited difference)

You may want to consider other forms of protein in your diet be it from meat or from other sources ie quinoa, oats etc By increasing these you can over the course of the day still strike a balance so you are not having to consume your very own milk lake each day

bfg1 said
re the whey protein, bloating and the worst thing of all protein farts uggggghhhhh I find the only way I can avoid them is to use soy protein but a its expensive and b half the population believe I will get moobs if I use it and have to change my name to Barbara

Thanks bfg1, for bringing up that delicate subject of well, protein farts...LOL But seriously, do all protein powders give one such gas? Like I said before, sometimes its downright painful I want to reach for a Gas-X. AUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

I wonder if this has to do with a mild allergy to whey itself. I don't have this problem when it comes to having whey.

I'll tell you the one thing that gives me gas is broccoli. Lord have mercy for anyone around me after binging on my favorite veggie!

And bfg1, keep in mind that the milk you drink in Europe and most of the rest of the world is much different from the milk we consume in the United States.
The united Nations has a ban on our milk from being imported.

http://www.consumersunion.org/food/bghny899.htm
http://www.preventcancer.com/consumers/general/milk.htm
http://www.dailycardinal.com/article/2942

Our milk comes from cows treated with growth hormones (since 1994). The FDA , in all its' profound genius , decided that it didn't even have to be labeled as such. In fact, the only way you know your milk is free from hormones is if it is labeled with a "NO Rbgh" sticker.



"Genetic Engineering is often justified as a human technology, one that feeds more people with better food. Nothing could be further from the truth. With very few exceptions, the whole point of genetic engineering is to increase sales of chemicals and bio-engineered products to dependent farmers."



David Ehrenfield: Professor of Biology, Rutgers University


"The FDA's failure to require labeling of genetically altered foods is effectively restricting Americans from exercising this right and subjects individuals to foods they have sound…reasons to avoid. FDA policy thus appears to violate the First Amendment of the Constitution….the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, which requires that added substances to food be labeled…and mandates disclosure of material facts."



Alliance for Bio-integrity Statement - in a lawsuit filed against the DFA by nine scientists and twelve religious leaders.


" Recombinant DNA technology faces our society with problems unprecedented not only in the history of science, but of life on Earth. It places in human hands the capacity to redesign living organisms, the products of three billion years of evolution. Such intervention must not be confused with previous intrusions upon the natural order of living organisms: animal and plant breeding…All the earlier procedures worked within single or closely related species…Our morality up to now has been to go ahead without restriction to learn all that we can about nature. Restructuring nature was not part of the bargain…this direction may be not only unwise, but dangerous. Potentially, it could breed new animal and plant diseases, new sources of cancer, novel epidemics."

Dr. George Wald: Nobel Laureate in Medicine, 1967

Higgins Professor of Biology, Harvard University

Genetic engineering as it pertains to the agricultural economy has been around for quite a long time. They mix animal genetics with plant genetics to create a superior plant. And when you think about it a true vegan really isn't a true vegan since the genetic make up of the fruits/veggies that he/she is eating is scientifically part animal.

I'm lactose intolerant.

mnjock2003 saidAnd bfg1, keep in mind that the milk you drink in Europe and most of the rest of the world is much different from the milk we consume in the United States.
The united Nations has a ban on our milk from being imported.

I think the Monsanto corporation is substantially more to blame than the FDA....

After all they make and distribute prosilac and have been indited several times for covering up scientific research surrounding it.


I drink a lot of milk almost a gallon a day and my parents are concerned about me living in California and have asked me to try and drink organic milk


Then again maybe it's the cause of the more muscled up population over there in the States....

muchmorethanmuscle saidGenetic engineering as it pertains to the agricultural economy has been around for quite a long time. They mix animal genetics with plant genetics to create a superior plant. And when you think about it a true vegan really isn't a true vegan since the genetic make up of the fruits/veggies that he/she is eating is scientifically part animal.

Ha ha.
You are right about plants being Genetically engineered.... basically erasing the purpose of evolution. It's frightening how agribusiness is controlled by a couple companies who are deciding what is best for us while the consumer is left in the dark because of the decision making of the FDA.
But, the comment about being a true vegan is a little extreme. It is along the lines of "carrots have feelings too" that comes up in every vegetarian conversation. I will never understand what it is about this topic that makes people say the most ludicrous things.
But, I will digress as the conversation is about milk and not half animal/half plants.

this may sound dumb, but what makes milk organic then? Is it more similar to European milk?

No hormones or anti-biotics.
the cow also has to be allowed time in the pasture so that it is grass fed instead of grain fed.. but the amount of time isn't specified. Even one day in the field could technically count and they could spend 95% of the time in a pen eating grain and still be called organic.
The kicker is that organic milk is worse for the environment because hormone free animals produce less milk than hormone injected animals per pound , but still produce the same amount of waste and gas.

I feel I should add this to help with some of the people emailing me.
I have been a vegetarian for 18 years now, not vegan. After many long conversations with my physician at the Mayo, we came up with a plan that makes me vegan five days a week and on the weekends I don't worry about butter and eggs, etc. I have an extreme diet because of the heart disease, cancer and diabetes that is in my blood line. Not everyone will have to worry about milk or meat or anything else for that matter. I do. I am not sure that I won't end up with cancer, but I am doing whatever I can to prevent it or from making a bad situation worse.
I am not advocating my lifestyle to anyone, but you should talk with your doctor if you are concerned, not just a bunch of bodybuilders who will never be big enough.

RunintheCity saidnut allergy

That sounds funny.