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May 08, 2008 1:56 AM GMT
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Effeminate son, what would you do?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90247842
i can't honestly say i know how i would react. I know i would be understanding but i would be so worried.. maybe something is wrong.
lol i hate to admit this but i had a little mermaid toy when i was really young that i loved. My parents say i watch cinderella alot. But to be fair, my parents have video of me playing and apparently the little mermaid was my sidekick for batman action figure so there... a little dignity.
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May 08, 2008 2:04 AM GMT
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I would love and protect him, allowing him the space to be himself. His gender expression and gender identity are elements of/about him, not me, the hypothetical parent. I shouldn't define it - he should.
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May 08, 2008 2:07 AM GMT
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I would love him no matter what. If he wants to shoot hoops...we shoot hopes. If he wants to play with dolls....we play with dolls. I would never tell him its wrong to be who he is.
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May 08, 2008 2:11 AM GMT
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I totally agree with the others... whats the alternative, make him feel inferior? That would be the worst thing in the world. To be comfortable with himself should be the goal, regardless of who he is...
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May 08, 2008 2:16 AM GMT
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RunintheCity saidI would love and protect him, allowing him the space to be himself. His gender expression and identity is about him, not me the parent. I shouldn't define it - he should.
My thoughts exactly. |
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May 08, 2008 2:24 AM GMT
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When children at the ages of 2 and 3 are expressing themselves as the opposite sex, I would say it is innate and they should be allowed to develop their own way. Such young kids dont know the difference, so they are obviously acting on their own internal feelings.
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May 08, 2008 2:26 AM GMT
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What would I do? Nothing. If he showed an interest in fashion, I would encourage him hoping he was the next Armani or St. Laurent and would keep me in the lifestyle I so richly deserved for being such a good father!  |
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May 08, 2008 2:28 AM GMT
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Oh my heart breaks for Bradley.
As a kid, I played with dolls and tonka trucks, I was big into constructing houses for dolls and used tonka trucks to move earth and bring in lumber and the dolls decorated hehe
But I still remember being picked on cause I liked dolls, by both my family and people outside of it. I eventually stopped playing with any toys what so ever and stopped being friends with women..
BOY, where my family stupid, I turned into a big'ol homo hehehe
Still, I'd love both of them for who they are, I'd protect them as much as I can and teach them how to stand in the face of ridicule and be proud of all that they are!
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May 08, 2008 2:37 AM GMT
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Man that was heartbreaking reading about the boy forced to give up his identity to pacify his parents desires. By his own mothers words you can tell he's a mess. He wants so bad to please his parents he's willing to play a role for them but she knows down deep inside he still identifies as female. I just couldn't do that to a child. I believe if we are lucky enough to have children they are gifts. Incredible little souls with their own unique personalities. It would be sadistic to screw with that little soul like this. If he were born my son and developed gender identification problems I'd privately ache for the struggles he is going through but I'd never try to step in and demand he be something he is not. If he wants to play with dolls he'd have the whole freakin barbie collection. If he wanted a pink room when I was done painting it the room would look like someone threw up pepto bismal all over the place. I'd have to seek out medical help to know how to deal with this but I'd seek out someone like the one therapist that won't make my child feel like a piece of confused garbage. My goal would be to understand and how to adapt. Of course being a gay man I'm more receptive to this approach because I know what it's like to hear you are not normal for your sexual thoughts and desires so you try to give everyone else what they perceive as normal to make them happy. They get all the happiness by your performance but you are freakin miserable and thats what I'd be aware of in this situation. I want so much to find the one family screwing with their son and tell them to give him his fucken doll and leave her alone.  |
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May 08, 2008 2:37 AM GMT
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Depending on how early I noticed it I'd try and counter the femininity.
Toy trucks and tool, perhaps take him to those mindless fair events where tractors pull concrete blocks around. Since how he's raised impacts his future self I'd try and sculpt him to be a bit more manly.
If he still ended up an effeminate homo I'd love him all the same thou.
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May 08, 2008 2:45 AM GMT
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Trance23 said
If he still ended up a effeminate homo I'd love him all the same thou.  |
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May 08, 2008 2:47 AM GMT
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Trance23 said
Since how he's raised impacts his future self I'd try and sculpt him to be a bit more manly.
Which raises the essential question at work here: Why is manly superior to effeminate? The misogynistic presumption of the superiority of gender expression of a masculine nature is never questioned enough in these situations. Why is the effeminate 'bad'? What is the fear? (I'm not asking Trance, just posing the questions for the general discussion.) |
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May 08, 2008 2:54 AM GMT
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^ not asked directly but I'll answer.
I won't speak for society, but personally I just wouldn't want a feminine acting male child. Knowing his future will be tougher by the sole fact he doesn't conform would push me to try and mold him while young. I'd say it stems from the fact I don't think children are born destined to be masculine, or feminine. I think thats all determined by upbringing.
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May 08, 2008 3:05 AM GMT
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It's sad what some parents will do to their kids to make them 'perfect'. It's well intentioned, sure, but they need to realize that they're just opening the doors to serious psychological issues in the future.
I was a pretty femme kid, I played with dolls, made them clothes, played with my mothers make-up and LOVED to walk around the house in her heels. I also did all the usual 'boy' stuff too, so I could hardly take issue with having a femme child. My parents let me do my thing and I think I turned into a pretty well-developed person, so I would model that as a parent.
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May 08, 2008 3:05 AM GMT
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I would love him no matter what. One has worked in Child care. A Child is asexual. So One is happy for a boy to have a Dollie, as this may have no reflection on him, when he was a teen, young man, man.
But If this was the case still at ten. Well He would grow up ready for the world, because of dads jokes. Not only would One acknowledge it, One would make fun of it too. One would toughen him up for the world.
But I would also try to get him into Motor bikes, and such too. Fishing, camping with tents.
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May 08, 2008 3:05 AM GMT
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I don't think i would actively try to change their gender identity but i would play with them with blocks and trucks a little just to try to give them even exposure.
The truth is im not sure how id even raise a girl. Society starts training girls to be devoted to marriage from a really young age. In some sense i would feel the need to shield my daughter from societies expectations for women:finding a husband they can live through, and looking pretty to attract a husband who will have a good job. Lots of girls toys promote this kind of thinking, that girls have to be superficial in some sense Barbie dolls, polypocket, and play kitchen included.
Now im not totally downing girl toys. God only knows i loved to play house in kindergarden (I did some cooking, i wasn't a chauvinist kindergardener like some of my friends).So i think i had a descent balance in that i was able to play well in both scenerios. I would however be worried if my daughter started to play barbie and house way too much
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May 08, 2008 3:07 AM GMT
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ShawnTO saidand I think I turned into a pretty well-developed person oh I do, too....I so do, too ....  |
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May 08, 2008 3:13 AM GMT
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I would love him the way he was. And I think any parent that would try to "mold" there son into what they want is a bad parent. People say being gay is a much harder lifestyle? Compared to what?? There is no easy lifestyle. I'm not over being raped while my family is being slaughtered in africa I think I'll get over the hard lifestyle. I think its selfish and extremely potentially damaging to the kid from being a child to adulthood.
Parents try to take on too much of a role of who their kids should be, instead of letting them be who they want to be. I believe the only job a parent should be doing for their child is giving them a loving supportive relationship, giving them confidence and helping them become the man/woman they were meant be.
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May 08, 2008 3:14 AM GMT
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RuninthecityWhich raises the essential question at work here: Why is manly superior to effeminate? The misogynistic presumption of the superiority of gender expression of a masculine nature is never questioned enough in these situations. Why is the effeminate 'bad'? What is the fear? That's part of the cultural narrative at work here, but it's not so simple for parents who want to protect their kids from the brutal prejudice they are almost certainly going to encounter when they emerge from childhood. Further, it's not like being part of a racial minority, or even the gay minority, whose members can support one another. Trans kids have a much more difficult time finding support from contemporaries. I've worked with two families with obviously trans boys, both under 10. Of course, my approach is totally the second therapist's approach. Frankly, it shocks me that people are still trying to recondition gender on what is basically the old psychoanalytical model. As JSTTennnis observed, it is obvious that the first kid is doing his best to conceal his nature just to please his parents. It makes a huge difference in the psychological health of a kid if he feels totally accepted by his family. (I showed the families the film "Ma Vie en Rose." It's helpful in making this clear.) If a kid has that, the bigotry he encounters in the world is a lot easier to handle. Most of the work I did with the two kids I saw was with their families, not with the kids themselves, since they had yet to encounter the cruelty likely coming their way. I have also worked with another trans kid, 12, whose mother and sister completely supported him and he's learned what he has to do to protect himself. The kid must never be held accountable for the world's disapproval but eventually he's got to learn how to deal with it. I loved working with these kids, especially the youngest, because they were completely earnest. I took them shopping and they made a beeline for the girls' department. I might add that in one case this had nothing to do with the usual gender-based stereotypes: he played sports as well as played with dolls. Their usurpation of gender and complete innocence about it was very moving to watch. |
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May 08, 2008 3:15 AM GMT
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i think you worry too much.
if your boy is more girl, then yes, you should worry for his safety, but your dignity comment at the end of your initial posting is rather disturbing.
if an adult is going to raise a child, it should be with the understanding that that child is an individual (not a clone) who will one day be an adult unto him/herself, whether s/he conforms to the parent's ideals or not.
really. grow a pair and fight for your effeminate son. he has bigger balls than anyone on the football team.
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May 08, 2008 3:23 AM GMT
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See I look at gender identity disorder as being completely different from having a few feminine qualities. In the one boys case he clearly identified as being female. It went as far as getting excited when someone acknowledged him as a little girl. I think something like that is so deep rooted it's beyond environmental. In the other case they've tried providing more masculine toys. Even eliminated the damn color pink and this kid for whatever reason still shows signs he is pulled toward the feminine.
I just think in these cases no matter how hard someone desires to "mold" a child into something it's not going to work in the long run. It may become a game of that double identity that the one mother was talking about.
I do agree with everyone who said they would prefer that this wasn't an issue because you would ache for his safety but through proper medical approach you would be given avenues to work around it.
The bigger question would be... what happens if at the end of all the masculine therapy he still personally identifies as female? What do you do then? Look at him and say.. STOP THAT! and confuse the kid further? You may be fighting a losing battle in the attempt to recreate the child for what you thought was his safety.
Like I said, it's one thing if your boy likes to play with dolls and comes off a bit feminine but also knows he's a boy and also embraces more masculine things. You can create a healthy balance with that but when it's to the point where he strictly identifies as female, has no desire to embrace anything masculine I just don't think you are going to be successful in a home transformation and the one needing the transformation to acceptance may end up being the parent.
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May 08, 2008 3:46 AM GMT
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I'd love and support him either way, and encourage them to be themselves, not try to cover up who they are, that's wrong and can lead to much deeper psych probs in the future.
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May 08, 2008 3:49 AM GMT
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Trance23 saidDepending on how early I noticed it I'd try and counter the femininity.
Toy trucks and tool, perhaps take him to those mindless fair events where tractors pull concrete blocks around. Since how he's raised impacts his future self I'd try and sculpt him to be a bit more manly.
If he still ended up an effeminate homo I'd love him all the same thou. I'd incorporate the more masculine things like the toy trucks and stuff but not to see if I get the same results that you are suggesting. I'd be interested to see if he had any interest in those things. If he did fine. If not I'd be fine with that as well. I'd be very cautious in demanding that my son play with a toy or color with a certain color simply because he was a boy. I just don't think even if I did see him embrace some of these masculine things I'd be eliminating his feminine personality. I'm pretty sure there are lots of feminine men out there that enjoyed going to mindless fair events where tractors pull concrete blocks but it didn't make their vocal inflection lower or change the way they walked or presented themselves. So even though he ends up embracing all those masculine things you may still end up with an effeminate homo as you said. |
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May 08, 2008 3:59 AM GMT
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RunintheCity said[quote][cite]Trance23 said[/cite]
Since how he's raised impacts his future self I'd try and sculpt him to be a bit more manly.
Which raises the essential question at work here: Why is manly superior to effeminate? The misogynistic presumption of the superiority of gender expression of a masculine nature is never questioned enough in these situations. Why is the effeminate 'bad'? What is the fear? (I'm not asking Trance, just posing the questions for the general discussion.)[/quote] I love you. |
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May 08, 2008 4:11 AM GMT
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RunintheCity said[quote][cite]Trance23 said[/cite]
Since how he's raised impacts his future self I'd try and sculpt him to be a bit more manly.
Which raises the essential question at work here: Why is manly superior to effeminate? The misogynistic presumption of the superiority of gender expression of a masculine nature is never questioned enough in these situations. Why is the effeminate 'bad'? What is the fear?
(I'm not asking Trance, just posing the questions for the general discussion.)[/quote] I loved this statement as well but I think you already know the unfortunate answer. Men who are perceived as feminine are considered weaker. A weak man is of no use in a society dominated by the masculine male. Now I'm not saying that. I'm giving you the obvious answer. It's a shame. It can be disputed but to the whole of society the role of the Masculine male as the superior being was established immediately. |
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May 08, 2008 4:21 AM GMT
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Motormouth Maybelle from Hairspray said it best. "Get ready for a whole lotta ugly, comin at you from a never endin parade of stupid."
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May 08, 2008 4:24 AM GMT
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May 08, 2008 4:27 AM GMT
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May 08, 2008 5:01 AM GMT
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Seriously, reading through this post confirms why I love gay men and why I think we make some of the best parents out there. I know it's not everyone's ambition, but these posts speak for themselves... we are accepting. We have been and are still considered outsiders. We embrace what makes us different and often times value similar qualities in others.
I am proud to be posting in the same arena as the rest of you above me. You're right, love the little guy for who he is and nurture regardless of the toys he is drawn to.
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May 08, 2008 5:14 AM GMT
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Why would that be a problem?
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May 08, 2008 5:29 AM GMT
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that french movie was great, dont remember it now because i saw it a long time ago but man i know i though it was great at the time.
man, i use to love to take off all the clothes of like GI joe and his buddies and push them thru the mud etc. Loved those other action programs like the ones with airplanes (really remember the one with the fat body/cargo jet with the reversed wings=just saw an old toy of it yesterday), really into airplanes. also, always wanted to wrestle with my friends so much so that they really got annoyed with me so began to start fights, but really i know that i was hiding something all the time. only realze it now i wanted to find someone to make me submissive and the airplane thing was really phalic. Amazing what u realize when u get older.
parents had no understanding, just too over their heads, like that lost language of cranes movie.
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May 08, 2008 5:46 AM GMT
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And the answer, of course, is that we should be changing society not people.
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May 08, 2008 6:06 AM GMT
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First I would beat the butch into that little Mother FuC#@R, just kidding.
I would never say anything to either of my kids to ever kill their spirits.
Honestly, I have amazing kids. But they are definately very free spirited like their dad. But my love for them is unconditional. I think that "so far" I have mastered just keeping my mouth shut when they go on with some of the werid things that their friends are doing and just show them both sides of the decisions. They've always made the right choice for them. I'm proud of this.
I don't even know if I would notice femy behavior as I would just see it as who they are.
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May 08, 2008 6:17 AM GMT
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For a site that sometimes seems to push the "the-straighter-you-act-the-better" mentality, I'm glad to see these responses.
I couldn't agree more with what people are saying.
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May 08, 2008 10:53 AM GMT
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Anyone seen "Ma Vie en Rose" ( my life in Pink )
it's about just this issue
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May 08, 2008 11:37 AM GMT
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I'd make him walk on hot coals and sleep on a bed of nails until the little fag butched up.
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May 08, 2008 12:41 PM GMT
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jsttennis77 said
I loved this statement as well but I think you already know the unfortunate answer.
Men who are perceived as feminine are considered weaker. A weak man is of no use in a society dominated by the masculine male. Now I'm not saying that. I'm giving you the obvious answer. It's a shame. It can be disputed but to the whole of society the role of the Masculine male as the superior being was established immediately. You're right of course, but that doesn't mean we have to like or live with it. I try to defend femme guys any chance I get...but then, I catch myself, as I did yesterday, behaving in a misogynistic fashion (complaining about a woman's bad driving in not so nice terms) and realize just how deep this anti-feminine streak runs in so many, even the acutely aware. Also, for this discussion let's maintain clarity between simply being effeminate and true gender identity...I hate the word disorder, but it'll have to do for now. The original poster's question was about an effeminate acting boy...(although from the other responses the link was about a transgender youth? I didn't read it, anyway)...not necessarily someone with psychologically diagnosed gender 'confusion' (again, yucky word, ugh.) The 2 scenarios might have similarities but likely require a whole different approach, support system, and developed skill set from the parents. Trance23 said
I won't speak for society, but personally I just wouldn't want a feminine acting male child. Knowing his future will be tougher by the sole fact he doesn't conform would push me to try and mold him while young. I'd say it stems from the fact I don't think children are born destined to be masculine, or feminine. I think thats all determined by upbringing. Again, just remember and be honest about the fact that you'd thus be making it about YOU and not him. As someone else said, children are people. Individuals. Not clones. As for upbringing, haven't we all met/known femme guys who despite the parents' best reprogramming efforts remained femme? It's rather like the whole ex-gay movement and reparative therapy tripe. I'm glad there hasn't been a barrage of people posting that they'd change him, this that, etc...sounding much like the parents who perhaps disapproved of their homosexuality. Some behaviors - such as disapproval and misogyny - are very much learned. |
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May 08, 2008 1:18 PM GMT
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ShawnTO saidIt's sad what some parents will do to their kids to make them 'perfect'. It's well intentioned, sure, but they need to realize that they're just opening the doors to serious psychological issues in the future.
I was a pretty femme kid, I played with dolls, made them clothes, played with my mothers make-up and LOVED to walk around the house in her heels. I also did all the usual 'boy' stuff too, so I could hardly take issue with having a femme child. My parents let me do my thing and I think I turned into a pretty well-developed person, so I would model that as a parent. Can you still walk in heels? I think they look really uncomfortable, and I hate uncomfortable shoes. |
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May 08, 2008 1:22 PM GMT
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I will love him , but I would at least try to make him behave like boy. Someone say, what is the problem. It is a BIG PROBLEM. Most effiminate kid was abuse at school . I know because I was one of them. I was bullied, not accepted , beat up and psycologically abuse. My childhood is nothing, but sad memory of abusive schoolmate, nasty teacher and being rejected. Sometimes I wish I have more explosure to boy than girl as a kid. Most of my friend are girls, since there no boy to play with. My sibling is so much older than me , so they certainly dont want to play game with me.
Letting kid to be themselves didnt mean allowing them to do destructive behaviour . Probably if we live in a perfect world , where everybody respected each other , you could get away with being a sissy and behaving like girl (when you are a boy) . Certainly not on this planet.
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May 08, 2008 1:52 PM GMT
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i broke my sisters barbie dolls,
i have a bunch of small scale construction vehicles
i collect(ed) beer coasters as of the ago of 12
according to my parents i wasn't an effeminate kid, but for some reason in elementary school (grade 4)i was ever so fortunately given the nickname "Gay Boy" by some of the other kids. THANKS GUYS! *thumbs up*
if my kid paints his Fisher Price ridable firetruck pink and renames it the fashion wagon and carries around a Superman doll in a drawn on bikini... then his sidekick better be giving him good advice on shoes to help keep me trendy.
ya of course i'll be worried about his social life, and i'll keep an eye on whether or not he's getting teased and abused at school. i won't be overbearing and i won't just sit back and watch either (both of which my parents did, not that i blame them they didn't know always. i'll be the batman of parenting and always be there but never seen unless it's time to kick some ass.
on another side note. my sister definitely had the cooler Hot Wheelscars and trucks. so then why does it become ok to give girls "guy toys", but not the other way around?
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May 08, 2008 2:36 PM GMT
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Wysiwyg60 said[quote][cite]ShawnTO said[/cite]Can you still walk in heels? I think they look really uncomfortable, and I hate uncomfortable shoes. Walk, run, jump...no prob! |
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May 08, 2008 2:50 PM GMT
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RunintheCity said
Again, just remember and be honest about the fact that you'd thus be making it about YOU and not him. As someone else said, children are people. Individuals. Not clones. As for upbringing, haven't we all met/known femme guys who despite the parents' best reprogramming efforts remained femme? It's rather like the whole ex-gay movement and reparative therapy tripe.
I'm glad there hasn't been a barrage of people posting that they'd change him, this that, etc...sounding much like the parents who perhaps disapproved of their homosexuality. Some behaviors - such as disapproval and misogyny - are very much learned. I'd wager that parents are not even the best influence on a child's development. They could even counter their own efforts. Other influences, TV, friendships, etc can all be factors. Changing the child is all about their own future. A child isn't born destined to want a sex change at some point or born to be an feminine guy. Genes can have some degree of in influence but they don't predetermine the future. At this point society doesn't welcome an effeminate guy as much as it does a masculine one. I don't live in San Fran or another gay center so raising a child out here and nurturing feminine attributes would only hurt him later on. Personally I call the attitude of promoting whatever desires the child wants selfish to a degree. Subconsciously I'd bet many guys would see the child as being able to experience a freedom they never had. |
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May 08, 2008 3:09 PM GMT
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I would do just like the rest of you would do. I would love him no matter who and what he is. I would teach him to never, EVER be afraid of who he is. Just because he's different doesn't mean anyone should treat him any less than a human being. Sure he'll face opposition, but he'll have to learn how to "fight back".
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May 08, 2008 3:16 PM GMT
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I would sign him up early for kick boxing and karate classes.
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May 08, 2008 3:23 PM GMT
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An interesting discussion. Scientific studies on the causes of homosexuality seem to be leaning towards the influence of hormones released by the mother in utero as well as genetics. Therefore, some gay boys will be born pre-disposed to be less masculine (e.g. ShawnTO) then others.
There is no compelling evidence to suggest that upbringing has anything to with effeminate behaviour. I certainly had opportunities to play with dolls, I didn't because I was not interested. I would rather be playing with my dinky toys (small cars so get your heads out of the gutter). Nobody forced me to do that, I loved spending hours on the floor playing with the cars and using my imagination to dream up different scenarios.
Want to make a human being miserable? Try to make them into something they are not. They are going to grow up confused, unhappy and neurotic, because their inner reality does not match with others expectations of them.
They may be bullied at school but if the parents support the child, the child will more likely stand up to the bullies and will cope more effectively with the bullying. Secondly, school does not last forever and the child will have a much greater chance of becoming a self-confident and happy adult (and is that not the purpose of child-rearing?). I feel ShawnTO is a good example of this.
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May 08, 2008 3:41 PM GMT
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Just let him be. Set him free!!
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May 08, 2008 3:53 PM GMT
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Trance23 said
Changing the child is all about their own future. A child isn't born destined to want a sex change at some point or born to be an feminine guy. Genes can have some degree of in influence but they don't predetermine the future. At this point society doesn't welcome an effeminate guy as much as it does a masculine one. I don't live in San Fran or another gay center so raising a child out here and nurturing feminine attributes would only hurt him later on.
Personally I call the attitude of promoting whatever desires the child wants selfish to a degree. Subconsciously I'd bet many guys would see the child as being able to experience a freedom they never had.  I give up. |
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May 08, 2008 3:56 PM GMT
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I wasn't masculine enough growing up in small town South Dakota, but I still did my own things. I followed the beat of a different drummer.
Basically, love them for who they are. Kids DO change.
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May 08, 2008 4:12 PM GMT
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QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HEREChanging the child is all about their own future. A child isn't born destined to want a sex change at some point or born to be an feminine guy. Genes can have some degree of in influence but they don't predetermine the future. At this point society doesn't welcome an effeminate guy as much as it does a masculine one. I don't live in San Fran or another gay center so raising a child out here and nurturing feminine attributes would only hurt him later on.
Personally I call the attitude of promoting whatever desires the child wants selfish to a degree. Subconsciously I'd bet many guys would see the child as being able to experience a freedom they never had. I have to be completely blunt because that is the biggest load of crap I’ve seen in a while. If that’s your argument then to me that’s like did we choose to be gay? No, so why would a man choose to change his sex later on in life if he felt he was living as the wrong gender? I mean if that’s the case we should have been raised harder to love women to have sex with women because It’s not natural. Two men can’t make a baby. See how that works when you make another group of people look like illegitimate. And I’m sorry genes don’t predetermine the future? Should I laugh now or later? Ever hear of Alzheimer’s? That runs in families and last time I checked it usually kicks in around age 65. Nurturing a feminine boy the way he wishes to be is more positive then some dad yelling at him to be something he’s not his entire childhood. As for people making fun, people develop a thick skin, and if it wasn’t for people like you trying to cover it up, sexuality and gender identity wouldn’t have a negative connotation to begin with. |
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May 08, 2008 4:17 PM GMT
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It's obvious that the majority of us are in support of a "live and let be" parenting style, but that is likely because those of us who feel this way were raised as such.
My parents have rarely encouraged me to participate in activities different from those I wanted to. They supported what I wanted to do, despite the fact that I'm sure I've shown tendencies toward homosexuality rather than heterosexuality.
I guarantee the general Anglo-hetero population would vehemently oppose a 'live and let be" approach.
Patrick
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May 08, 2008 4:28 PM GMT
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I am fascinated in these discussions about effeminate men, that:
#1 - we assume they are gay;
#2 - nobody talks about masculine women.
I have met several straight men that would make you turn your head everytime they opened their mouth they are so "over the top". They are successful despite likely being teased when they were younger.
I also notice that masculine women do not get the same treatment as effeminate men. My mom wanted from a very early age to be a boy (she thought they had more fun). Her personality is so much like her Father it is scary. She never wore make-up, disliked dresses or jewelry, could swear like a trooper (still can although she is trying to control it), and has always had unbelievable energy. Her brother is not effeminate but is more sensitive and less boisterous (more like the mother).
My conclusion is people are predisposed to act a certain way from day one. You can try and punish them or berate them to change their behaviour, but mother nature will win out one way or the other. If they are not allowed to be themselves they will develop coping mechanisms that are not healthy later in life.
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May 08, 2008 4:29 PM GMT
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Effemanate son? Well, a stint in the Marines ought to turn that youngster around! Yes sir! And just prior to that, let's send him to a damn good military boarding school - let that boy put down his dolls and pick up a rifle!
No - seriously, I'd encourage him to like himself, make him feel good about himself - and get him into a school where he could have friends and feel o.k. about whatever he wanted to do - be it build bridges or design clothes.
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May 08, 2008 4:57 PM GMT
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Signboy07 saidMotormouth Maybelle from Hairspray said it best. "Get ready for a whole lotta ugly, comin at you from a never endin parade of stupid." Having been a VERY effeminate little boy myself, I would certainly not do what my own father did (you folks can guess what that was). I would try to do everything I could to help him understand that he was OK just as he was, and that the bosom of his family was a safe and unconditionally accepting space, while at the same time preparing him for the rest of the world, because he would be in for a whole ration of shit from all corners. |
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May 08, 2008 5:01 PM GMT
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I'd get my ass into gear with regards to writing stories and fairy tales that promote and enable their protagonists to express their gender-transgressive traits.
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May 08, 2008 5:07 PM GMT
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Trance23 said^ not asked directly but I'll answer.
I won't speak for society, but personally I just wouldn't want a feminine acting male child. Knowing his future will be tougher by the sole fact he doesn't conform would push me to try and mold him while young. I'd say it stems from the fact I don't think children are born destined to be masculine, or feminine. I think thats all determined by upbringing. Hahaha - can anyone else see Trance in a nun's habit beating some kid's left hand with a ruler calling him Devil spawn? |
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May 08, 2008 5:37 PM GMT
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Girls are easier to raise than boys. They don't break your stuff. Also, if you drop a fuel injector retaining bolt into the middle of the V12 you're rebuilding, they can reach right down with their little fingers and retrieve it. carthesis saidThe truth is im not sure how id even raise a girl. Society starts training girls to be devoted to marriage from a really young age. In some sense i would feel the need to shield my daughter from societies expectations for women:finding a husband they can live through, and looking pretty to attract a husband who will have a good job. Lots of girls toys promote this kind of thinking, that girls have to be superficial in some sense Barbie dolls, polypocket, and play kitchen included.
Now im not totally downing girl toys. God only knows i loved to play house in kindergarden (I did some cooking, i wasn't a chauvinist kindergardener like some of my friends).So i think i had a descent balance in that i was able to play well in both scenerios. I would however be worried if my daughter started to play barbie and house way too much |
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May 08, 2008 6:31 PM GMT
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Gigaram said
Hahaha - can anyone else see Trance in a nun's habit beating some kid's left hand with a ruler calling him Devil spawn? More like the priestly collar. Being a nun would fly in the face on the message I'm trying to beat into the little F*cker. I'd ease my soul taking heart in the fact he'll turn out better than a child raised by an ungodly same sex couple. I shudder to think of all the pornography and liberal news he'll be subject to. I bet they'd even let their child use drugs and sell himself for money all the while applauding his independent attitude! Gawd, I can't wait for the day of weighing out so I can watch those heathen be cast into the fire they deserve. |
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May 08, 2008 6:38 PM GMT
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Sean_85 said
I have to be completely blunt because that is the biggest load of crap I’ve seen in a while.
If that’s your argument then to me that’s like did we choose to be gay? No, so why would a man choose to change his sex later on in life if he felt he was living as the wrong gender? I mean if that’s the case we should have been raised harder to love women to have sex with women because It’s not natural. Two men can’t make a baby.
See how that works when you make another group of people look like illegitimate.
And I’m sorry genes don’t predetermine the future? Should I laugh now or later? Ever hear of Alzheimer’s? That runs in families and last time I checked it usually kicks in around age 65.
Nurturing a feminine boy the way he wishes to be is more positive then some dad yelling at him to be something he’s not his entire childhood. As for people making fun, people develop a thick skin, and if it wasn’t for people like you trying to cover it up, sexuality and gender identity wouldn’t have a negative connotation to begin with.
If you read what I wrote (I suspect you didn't read the whole thread) I specifically stated genes have a likely large influence on being if your going to be gay or not. But beyond that can you say what a child's personality will be like for certain based of genetics? Further I never said anything about coving it up? If I did your more than welcome to point in out. Rather than jump to conclusions and rant using colorful language trying reading everything. Then you might understand I'd only try and mold a more masculine child but love him all the same if I failed. I don't buy into nurturing a child from birth, if he wants dolls at age 3 well sorry he's getting a toy truck. |
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May 08, 2008 7:11 PM GMT
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Take him as he is; after he'd be your son. Well, at least that's what I would do. If I ever managed to to afford to have kids with partner I'd be lucky to have, and the kids grew up antisocial, with medical handicaps, a flamer or just plain gay, then I'd take them as they are. I'd hope that they had, aside from their own personality and lifestyles, a good moral and ethical way of thinking and enough smarts and common sense to make it in this world after they've grown up. I know I didn't have that and it took a walk through fire and "mudd" to get me to where I am now.
But noone can tell someone else how to parent thier kids. Otherwise the kids wouldn't grow up to know much about responsibility and the real world... I'm rambling now....
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May 08, 2008 7:19 PM GMT
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All you could do is raise him with care and kindness to be a good and strong person.
It would be hard knowing all the crap he would have to put up with through life. We can brush over future difficulties we ourselves may face, but when you see it coming for someone else, there's no denying it.
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May 08, 2008 8:24 PM GMT
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Yes, yes, yes! Love and support him and let him be his own wonderful self!
Charlie
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May 09, 2008 3:46 AM GMT
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Trance23 said[quote][cite]Sean_85
If you read what I wrote (I suspect you didn't read the whole thread) I specifically stated genes have a likely large influence on being if your going to be gay or not. But beyond that can you say what a child's personality will be like for certain based of genetics?
Further I never said anything about coving it up? If I did your more than welcome to point in out. Rather than jump to conclusions and rant using colorful language trying reading everything. Then you might understand I'd only try and mold a more masculine child but love him all the same if I failed. I don't buy into nurturing a child from birth, if he wants dolls at age 3 well sorry he's getting a toy truck. I didn’t have to read all your posts to this thread to get the whole picture. That one post gave me a pretty general picture. First of, genes have to do with almost everything that effects a human beings life. And Genes affect the outcome of gender before the baby is born which is obviously not limited to boy or girl as we have people who now claim they feel like there a girl in a boys body. Ever watch Oprah? Gender is based on a lot more than personality. We’re getting into things that have to do with development in the womb, which either of us can't explain, which is why it’s best to keep an open mind about it. Giving a boy a truck to make him manly? It takes a lot more then a little boy playing with dolls to grow up and feel he’s not meant to live his life as a boy but as a female. Objects like toys and colours don’t change our genetics they don’t alter our DNA. Drinking beer didn’t make me straight. It just blows my mind that you as a gay man are most likely to want acceptance and people to understand that you being gay is not a choice and then you can go and slander another group of people who are looked at as taboo… but you don’t see why straight people might not think your choosing your lifestyle either. How can any gay guy expect acceptance when they can't even show an ounce of it themself? |
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May 09, 2008 5:04 AM GMT
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polobutt saidFirst I would beat the butch into that little Mother FuC#@R, just kidding.
I would never say anything to either of my kids to ever kill their spirits.
Honestly, I have amazing kids. But they are definitely very free spirited like their dad. But my love for them is unconditional. I think that "so far" I have mastered just keeping my mouth shut when they go on with some of the weird things that their friends are doing and just show them both sides of the decisions. They've always made the right choice for them. I'm proud of this.
I don't even know if I would notice femy behavior as I would just see it as who they are. Matey. I am an Orphan, and up for adoption! Would be happy to call you Ma. lol. Just don't wear rabbit slippers. |
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May 09, 2008 8:13 AM GMT
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For me, it's simple. Which of the two children portrayed are happier?
I will NOT sacrifice a child's mental health simply because people disapprove of his behavior. He will grow up having to deal with ostracization, I know. But the sooner he learns that life is not about seeking approval from OTHER people, the better.
There is nothing more devastating to a child than implying that something is WRONG with him.
I highly suggest watching the recent movie Breakfast With Scot.
However, parents should not go overboard. LOL. As jbedwards said, effeminate mannerisms does not necessarily mean he is gay. I once saw a gaythemed short on YouTube, forgot the title. It's in spanish, but it deals with how a boy seems to transgender, he asked to be dressed as Sireno on halloween (Sireno means male mermaid in spanish). His mom though reticent at first, actually went the entire other way and forced him to be gay. ROFL. It's hilarious. It turned out that the Sireno the boy was referring to was actually a fireman (Sireno also means sirens in spanish). The look on the boy's face when his mom forced him into a dress! LOL
I will just let him be what he wants to be, just showing him that I love him is all that matters to a child really.
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May 09, 2008 8:28 AM GMT
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"Dont do anything. Its their soul. Its very dagerious to try and change them, you risk confusing them and hurting them.
I wish that people had open minds. and I wish we were all Asexual one day magicaly to make this all appear realy funny.
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May 15, 2008 9:04 PM GMT
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I did not read every response but I did skim over many of them, that bit of truth out of the way... I am glad to see so many responses but what really surprised me was after reading: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90247842 article
One day, Bradley came home from an outing at the local playground with his baby sitter. He was covered in blood. A gash on his forehead ran deep into his hairline.
"What had happened was that two 10-year-old boys had thrown him off some playground equipment across the pavement because he'd been playing with a Barbie doll — and they called him a girl," Carol says
I had a hard time continuing the article when that quote was followed by the parents taking their abused kid to therapy. I am glad I finished the article because there was a lot more to it than just therapy for the wrong child. I thought Runinthecity had a good question, "Why is manly superior to effeminate?" It is difficult for me to understand having children and wanting them to conform for the sake of the child's comfort. My mother would tell me that it would be hard on a child who has parents of different races because they may be shunned from their parents respective races. When Triguy013 mentioned most of us having been raised with a 'live and let live' philosophy, I thought about my own upbringing and how I was seldom pushed into anything and was encouraged to do things I wanted, encouraged to stick with things I had shown an interest in but was thinking of giving up, and backed up anytime I decided to make a change in a different direction. From what I remember about play as a child, it was fantasy. Play was a sandbox that I was in charge of. I still seek out that sandbox often. Maybe we are worried too much about appearances? What other people think of our abilities to raise our children? Is there anything broken that needs to be fixed? Maybe the kids who pushed the kid playing with the doll should be what we should be worried about rather than if our boys are effeminate? Thanks for reading my pov. |
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May 16, 2008 5:02 PM GMT
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Jun 30, 2008 2:02 AM GMT
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Thanks for sharing that article...
As a child, my stepdad would not allow me to have a GI Joe b/c it was still a doll and dolls were for girls.
Now, I collect Barbies and other dolls...
My parents signed me up for baseball ( I sucked ). Now I don't even watch sports...
I would hurt for my child but it(my hurt) would be covered with a smile, encouragement and even more love.
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