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May 07, 2008 4:42 PM GMT
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There have been a number of threads on how to concentrate on the pecs when doing bench presses. I have found that by keeping my hands open - resting the bar across the hands rather than gripping the bar - I naturally put the job of lifting onto the pecs.
I suspect that when you grip the bar and bring the forearm and some bicep muscle action into the lift, the body assumes you are working arms and adds the triceps. With the open hand, the triceps seem to stay disengaged. This seems to work with the thumb either side of the bar.
I don't remember seeing this recommended before, but if it has, please just mark this off to an attack of "old timer's disease."
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May 07, 2008 5:23 PM GMT
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Very interesting. Will try.
I have also been told that it helps to pull your shoulder blades together after you lie down. Lie back to position, then concentrate on pulling your shoulder blades together underneath you, stretching the chest open. Then reach up for the bar and start the press.
Seems to help for me.
Interested in trying your open-hard press. Although CAREFULLY! LOL! Sounds to me like the makings of a new exercise: the "Adam's Apple Crusher", to go along with the Skull Crusher.
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May 07, 2008 7:34 PM GMT
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In the days before my cardiac incident and when I was into power lifting, I always did bench and military presses open handed with the thumb behind the bar rather than around it. It allows the bar to set back a little further. I found it safer and felt more secure than gripping the bar. I like your shoulder blade info, although I think I just naturally do it. After 50 years of weight lifting you tend to concentrate on the muscles you are working on, and the peripheral preparation is automatic. I also figured that if you bench press more than your triceps can handle the pecs will take over. But at my age I'm not there anymore.  |
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May 07, 2008 8:40 PM GMT
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To engage the pecs I find it easier to imagine trying to bend the bar into a V shape. Of course I don't but the pecs come into play more than the triceps, and the bar goes up. You might try a push-up and imagine trying to push your hands through the ground until the hands meet. Do that with the bar.
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May 07, 2008 9:21 PM GMT
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I suspect that when you grip the bar and bring the forearm and some bicep muscle action into the lift, the body assumes you are working arms and adds the triceps. With the open hand, the triceps seem to stay disengaged. This seems to work with the thumb either side of the bar.
I like the open hand grip, also. However, just be aware that it is physically impossible not to use your triceps when benching and bicep involvement is almost non-existent, except perhaps for a minimal negative involvement when lowering the bar.
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May 08, 2008 4:40 PM GMT
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Arching the shoulder blades back as if you are trying to get them to touch each other as you are bench pressing stretches the chest muscles even more...when I do that, I can feel them pull at the point where they are attached to the sternum. I definetely experience more of a burn doing this.
Just my experience...
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May 08, 2008 5:24 PM GMT
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All these are very good points that have worked for me:
Not gripping the bar (this is true for every chest and even shoulder exercise I do) really does work for me too.
Arching the shoulder blades on all chest exercises (not just bench lying ones).
Another thing that works is to keep trying different grip positions and different exercises and machines. And don't just stick with something that works for a year -- your body will get used to in weeks or months and you'll have to begin the search again. But the open grip and arched shoulder blades are techniques you can carry no matter what grip and/or exercise.
Good post!
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May 08, 2008 11:38 PM GMT
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if your goal is to work the chest...for asthetic purposes...why not just use dumbells?
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May 08, 2008 11:49 PM GMT
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...oh and it may just save your shoulders in the long term....
i would not reccomend benching with an open hand...
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May 09, 2008 4:12 AM GMT
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Ramm saidi would not reccomend benching with an open hand... Can you explain? |
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May 09, 2008 11:54 AM GMT
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sure...it's just..most accidents happen with a thumbless grip... a wide open hand sounds even more likely to be a problem...
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May 11, 2008 11:12 PM GMT
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thumbless is always frowned upon, its a big no no apparently.
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Jun 13, 2008 6:11 AM GMT
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I just got into barbell bench presses, as bogus as that might sound. I usually do dumbbell presses. I've had a history of wrist problems so is it best, when doing any type of chest press, to hold the weight with the backside of your hands near-parallel to the floor or in-line with forearms)?
Also, I've read up on how you should (or shouldn't) keep your lower back flat against the bench. I forget which one is correct? Any ideas?
Thanks in advance
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Jun 13, 2008 6:52 AM GMT
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jlk7jester saidthumbless is always frowned upon, its a big no no apparently. Who are these frowners and why are they always frowning? I think this explains why I use the open hand technique all the time -- I've always done things that frowners disapprove of. It's been the secret to my success, in fact. But please don't follow my example. I want to retain my advantage. |
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Jun 13, 2008 7:13 AM GMT
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zi0nx5 saidI just got into barbell bench presses, as bogus as that might sound. I usually do dumbbell presses. I've had a history of wrist problems so is it best, when doing any type of chest press, to hold the weight with the backside of your hands near-parallel to the floor or in-line with forearms)?
Also, I've read up on how you should (or shouldn't) keep your lower back flat against the bench. I forget which one is correct? Any ideas?
Thanks in advance Welcome to RJ, Zion, and thank you for increasing the hot guy quotient here. Rawr! But enough of the drooling... After staring at my hands like a recently-cured paraplegic, I think I finally understand what you're asking. As someone who has long suffered from wrist issues, my completely biased and uninformed answer is that I don't think such a grip choice as you pose makes any real difference. The problem I (and a number of other wrist problem types I know) have is that when holding on to a fixed straight bar, regardless of the position of your wrists, when that bar moves toward and away from you, there is a flexion of the wrist that I can only describe as a side-to-side wobble. I know this description sucks -- it really requires a live demo or a video to completely get across. Without trying to torture you with some long-winded verbiage, I'll just pretend you understand what I mean and come right to the conclusion: If you want to work with a bar and you find it bothers your wrists, try an ez-curl bar instead. Try both the "inner" and "outer" grip positions on the ez bar. If that doesn't help, then stick with dumbbells or machines with independent movements for each arm. To this day my wrists still can't deal with bench presses using a straight bar with any significant amount of weight, but I don't feel I've lost the ability to develop my chest -- there's a lot of other options besides a straight bar bench. As for the back - a healthy back should touch the bench on your butt and on your upper back -- the small of your lower back will naturally be off the bench if your spine is aligned properly and you're relaxed. A good rule is don't arch, but don't try to lay your whole spine (including lumbar) flat. Just keep the position you naturally have when you lie down on the bench unweighted. Other folks really should chime in here. I don't think I did all that well on this one  |
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Jun 13, 2008 8:14 AM GMT
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iguanaSFwhen that bar moves toward and away from you, there is a flexion of the wrist that I can only describe as a side-to-side wobble. No I got ya iguana. When the bar goes up, the slight pain goes up with it so I know exactly what you're talking about. And yeah, I forgot about using an ez-bar even though I was oggling at some guy using it on a bench today.. haha. Though the only problem would be getting the bar over to the bench, especially for heavier weights and not having a rack to fall back on (at least at my gym). But I guess the answer to that problem is not benching weights that's more than I can carry. And the back thing sounds about right. Thanks much. |
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Jun 13, 2008 6:34 PM GMT
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Cool you understood what I'm getting at. 10 points for you. 5 points for me. 2 points for the old lady in the funny hat.
When you say you'd have trouble carrying the weights to the bench, it seems your implying that you'd be carrying bars with the plates welded or fixed to the bar -- is that a correct interpretation on my part?
If that's the case, then I should mention I was thinking of using a "long" ez bar with removable plates. If your gym has ez-bars with fixed plates that someone was using on the bench, they should have a long ez bar with removable plates, right? Then you're not lugging a fully loaded bar around.
After you have more experience benching (assuming your wrists can deal), you definitely will be using heavier weights than you can conveniently carry, for sure.
K
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Jun 13, 2008 8:23 PM GMT
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Nope. My gym only has ez bars with fixed plates. No long ones that can be adjusted. Lame. It's a university gym so you can't expect too much.
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Jun 13, 2008 9:41 PM GMT
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zi0nx5 saidNope. My gym only has ez bars with fixed plates. No long ones that can be adjusted. Lame. It's a university gym so you can't expect too much. Hellllllloooooo dumbbell presses ;) |
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Jun 14, 2008 5:44 AM GMT
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Good advice...and remember that everyone is built differently. What works for one might not work for another. Long arms, short arms, ect.
I have worked up to a 405lb. for two. But honestly, flat bench never did much for me. I started with strong tri's over a weak chest and though my chest got stronger and bigger, flat bench was just not the best for me biomechanically.
My chest took off when I switched to decline and incline and dropped flat bench. Elbows flaired out so that my triceps did not do all the work. All the way down till the bar touched my chest, not the half movements so many guys do. Half movements really work triceps.
Also, dumbbell flies and cable cross overs added inches to my chest. People say cable cross overs are a finishing exercise. Muscles either work against the weight or they don't. Cables can be great and they give you constant tension.
If you really want to build chest, do dips. It is the equivalent of an upper body squat. Elbows out at right angles, feet forward so the body is in a C shape.
Good luck all!!!
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Jun 14, 2008 7:36 AM GMT
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Trigger has great points.
*stares at Trigger's pecs*
I also think this "mass building" versus "finishing" thing is the funniest crap I ever heard. A muscle doesn't understand if it's being "toned" versus "massed" versus "finished." All a bunch of hooey.
*stares at Trigger's delts*
I also found cable cross-overs to be a lot more effective than flat bench. And there's a bunch of different ways to do them. Experimenting with different hand starting heights (low, middle, high), different pushing motions (pumping forward and back, wide "hugs", short close-in crunches), different body positions (upright, slight lean forward, full lean forward), and lots more.
*stares at Trigger's biceps*
Also second his thoughts on dips, and he's reminded me that these have dropped off my radar for too long.
*stares at Trigger's triceps*
Uh... sorry, what was I talking about?
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Jun 14, 2008 4:07 PM GMT
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Triggerman said:
If you really want to build chest, do dips. It is the equivalent of an upper body squat. Elbows out at right angles, feet forward so the body is in a C shape.
Feet forward? Not sure I understand this positioning. I thought if you leaned forward with your feet back, the dip put more intensity on the chest muscles.
Would you please clarify?
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Jun 14, 2008 9:20 PM GMT
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Frank_AZ said[i]Would you please clarify? Yes, Frank is right. Clarification definitely needed. I suggest taking a friend to the gym with a camera. Remove your shirt, so we can see exactly which muscles are getting hit, do a little cardio to warm up and work up a nice sweat, then have your friend take some shots of you doing dips, letting the camera linger on each position, coming in close... close enough to see every striation glistening... and... *gulp* ... woah, am I dizzy all of a sudden *thud* |
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Jun 15, 2008 2:09 AM GMT
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If the camera survived the fall, I'd like to see the photos, ok?
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Jun 15, 2008 3:42 PM GMT
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I find that putting my feet on the bench, with knees raised, can help focus my attention on the chest by forcing me to balance everything without using my legs. I do this sometimes as part of the warm up, or if I feel any stress in my lower back when doing a press.
As for the hands open, I do this in a smith machine, but not with free weights. I mainly use the machines just for this purpose. It really helps on incline and decline presses.
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Jun 15, 2008 3:50 PM GMT
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It is great that you are trying to find ways to be sure you are working your chest however there is no way to extend your arms without using your triceps, that is what they are for. You may be concentrating more on your pecs but you are still using your arms and back a great deal. Most movements require group muscle work which is why it is hard to target just one because the stronger muscles will compensate for the weaker ones to an extent.
If you really want to target your chest good the switch your grip ever month or so and start off with a wide grip. Be sure that on the positive motion you are flexing your chest as hard as you can go. Also for safety you should be using no less than a half grip, you do not want that weight landing on your chest when the bar rolls out of your hand.
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Jun 15, 2008 4:08 PM GMT
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seems interesting to me...because back in high school one of my football coaches told some of us to use the open hand while bench pressing. I haven't seen anyone else do it...but i have been doing open hand bench presses for years and i feel like i have a pretty good chest. maybe its due to the hand placement.
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Jun 15, 2008 4:12 PM GMT
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justinlee86 saidseems interesting to me...because back in high school one of my football coaches told some of us to use the open hand while bench pressing. I haven't seen anyone else do it...but i have been doing open hand bench presses for years and i feel like i have a pretty good chest. maybe its due to the hand placement. No the open hand grip works well to target the chest more but its not safe in my opinion. Your chest looks great by the way! I would never use and open hand grip when benching 315 lbs. though which is generally as high as I go on flat bench. |
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Jun 15, 2008 4:24 PM GMT
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Great topic olden...
I ONLY use dumbells. I have no spent a penny on a gym or equipemt but it gets pretty hard trying to use little tricks to use dumbells for everything.
Regardless, I DREAM of large pecs but I'm a SMALL guy and most likely will not see any real mass in my chest unless I gain weight, which I cannot/will not do. So, I guess it's a toss up there.
Either way, I do think that having a real understanding on how to feel the particular muscles you're working out WHILE you're working out is one of the most important things a person with weights in hand can aim to feel.
I feel my pecs working though other areas also meet failure while I am working my chest too, I'm such a weakling. lol
Props to all of you with these amazing bods...they are the shyt!
XXX J
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Jun 15, 2008 4:41 PM GMT
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It is true on many exercises that loosening your grip will seem to help focus tension only onto the muscles you WANT to work...personally I would not do all the way open hand, but I understand your concept and why it feels better for your pecs...I would say though if you have wrist issues, why risk it with a barbell? Over time, it will not get better--and very well maybe the opposite. Dumbells are great; alternating and single arm can help add more work.
And I concur with others, I made a lot of progress with cable flyes, with different starting positions. Low-to-High helped me tremendously.
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Jun 15, 2008 6:05 PM GMT
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The reason I'm a big fan of the open hand grip, despite the valid concerns about safety, is that bench presses with heavy weights never was a big component of my chest work, and for the last few years, because of wrist issues, I don't do it at all any more anymore.
So I would never recommend it for heavy bench presses of any type: flat, incline, or decline. But there's a lot of other things you can do for chest (cables, machines, dumbbells), as discussed previously -- and the open hand grip can be relatively safe with these. Even on the bench, for light weights or just warming up, the open grip can be OK.
And just to be clear for those who haven't tried it -- open hand doesn't mean ALL the way open so that the fingers and palm are parallel with each other. It actually means a tight "cup" where you start with a "normal" closed grip, but then just peel your finger tips (and thumb) away from the bar, using the cup of your palm to cradle the bar/grip, with the fingers (and thumb) pointing away, acting as a kind of "roll prevention" stop.
So everyone is right and we all deserve a cookie. Or hot man sex. Whatever makes you happier.
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Jun 15, 2008 6:51 PM GMT
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Craig, I like in pecs, how yours are on the botom/centre. I don't have much bulk there myself but do notice that when attempting to decline a bit they do get targeted more. I also do push ups to a very low numbers failure, LMFAOOO
I think that an open grip, personally, is too much of a risk. I'd prefer a very light grip but I'd rather not have to focus on an open grip at the same time I'm trying to keep a set of muscles being responsive.
UGHHHH working out drives me bonkers!
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Jun 16, 2008 3:19 AM GMT
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Is there a way to develop my pecs through push-ups? Changing my hand positions, incline, decline etc.?
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Jun 16, 2008 5:22 AM GMT
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Thanks for everyone's input, good stuff. Cleancut71 saidIs there a way to develop my pecs through push-ups? Changing my hand positions, incline, decline etc.? Push-ups, at least for me are a staple. And I've gotten comfortable enough through the years to experiment with a lot of hand positions, open/closed-fist, grip lengths, inclines, etc. And like all other weight lifting techniques you sometimes have to consciously concentrate on working certain muscles. Like for wide grip/open-hand I try and squeeze my shoulder blades together pushing down, and using my chest to take the load off my arms while pushing up. My standard is knuckle (closed-fist) pushups with arms close to my sides---this engages the triceps and chest if you concentrate on the latter. Closed-fist pushups are ideally done on your first two knuckles only but that takes some time to get used to---at least that's what I learned in my martial arts class when I was younger. And declines (on a hill outside, or by placing your feet on a rail of some sort) so that your body is about -60 degrees works really well. It's all just experimentation, like I said. Different angles at which your (open) hands point, the length of the grip of course, one leg in the air, declines, T-Pushups (with dumbbells, preferably hex-shaped), and holding it for a few seconds while your chest is just an inch above the ground. All these should add to your chest, it has mine even though I don't have much of one cuz of my weight. oh well. The June/July issue of Men's Fitness has some good push-ups variations in it too. |
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Jun 16, 2008 5:51 AM GMT
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look_alive saidVery interesting. Will try.
I have also been told that it helps to pull your shoulder blades together after you lie down. Lie back to position, then concentrate on pulling your shoulder blades together underneath you, stretching the chest open. Then reach up for the bar and start the press.
Seems to help for me.
Interested in trying your open-hard press. Although CAREFULLY! LOL! Sounds to me like the makings of a new exercise: the "Adam's Apple Crusher", to go along with the Skull Crusher. Yeah. I agree with you on this one. CARE  is the operative word. It does seem risky specially for someone with weak wrists. Although, with somebody who has years of bbuilding experience, it should definitely be looked into.  |
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Jun 16, 2008 1:01 PM GMT
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I think you can gain and maintain some tone and shape from doing pushups...I think much like any other excer. you may hit a brick wall and need to add something new to the recipe.
I do pushups everyday, do them extra wide and then a very close stance. These too it's important that you feel the muscles and don't just lower/push your body around without really engaging your chest/back/triceps as much as possible.
Someone also brought up a good point...we can fight our body style and shape all we want but some folks just have the body they have and unless they want to train seriously, we usually have to say hello to our own indvidual "high point" and realize what the body is capable of doing with regards to growth.
Does anyone else not use a bench and just lie on the floor? (lol, did I just say that out loud?!)
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Jun 16, 2008 4:52 PM GMT
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KnowName saidDoes anyone else not use a bench and just lie on the floor? (lol, did I just say that out loud?!) Yes, but I do this without using any weights. Usually at home. When I'm tired. Then 30 mins or so later, my cat wakes me up and I feel refreshed. |
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Jun 17, 2008 3:56 AM GMT
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LOL I had re-read that trying to envision the workout lol...then I caught it going over my head! LOL
Ok, so...I'm a frugal worker outer!
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Jun 17, 2008 6:11 AM GMT
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I used to bench using the open grip style (parallel to the floor) and one can lift much weight because the force of the weight is being transferred through the arms to the chest and the chest is doing the majority of the work. However, I only did the open grip when using a spotter. Now that I have a different gym where it's a challenge to have a competent spotter and where I may be the only individual around who can lift more than 250+ safely, I switched to the closed grip style for safety reasons, but I have noticed that I use more of my triceps when I'm lifting with the closed grip as I try to keep them close to my chest when lifting. This seems to help me move the iron freely, especially when I do a narrower grip and has allowed me to push off the plateau that I once was on while using the open grip style. Not to mention, I no longer have the wrist pain and cracking like I used to. Perhaps wrapping my wrists would have helped, but I was a novice at the time when I was using the open grip and didn't use wrist wraps.
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Jun 17, 2008 7:25 PM GMT
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Open-hand grip is called a suicide grip for a good reason, it is unsafe! Even with a competent spotter, the risk of dropping the bar on your neck or chest is great. If you must use an open-hand grip do it with dumbbells only. Try different grip widths and changing up your routine to help increase your chest size. Push-ups and pop-up push-ups should also be included in your chest work-out. This is just my Certified opinion, take it or leave it.
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Jun 18, 2008 2:08 AM GMT
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Joe_M saidOpen-hand grip is called a suicide grip for a good reason, it is unsafe! Not to beat a dead horse, but I'll do it anyway, the assumption in your statement is that you're using it for bench presses. You can safely use open hand grip for a TON of other exercises (e.g. most all machines and cables, and a lot of dumbbell work). |
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Jun 19, 2008 12:12 AM GMT
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Cleancut71 saidIs there a way to develop my pecs through push-ups? Changing my hand positions, incline, decline etc.? I use nothing but body weight for my chest. I tend to do a lot of different variations of push-ups (incline, decline, with one arm on a higher platform to change the balance, core push ups, diamond push ups, etc.) and a lot of dips. It works for me. My goal right now is to be able to do dips while trying to keep my body parallel to the floor as opposed to the usual position. I'm not quite there yet but I'm getting close everyday. People always ask me: "so how much do you bench right now?" My honest answer is always: "I have no idea because I don't do bench presses." |
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Jun 19, 2008 1:39 PM GMT
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My experience as a massage therapist make me see many guys with great pectoral muscles but also with deltoids problems and hand tingling, numbning. Also I tend to see guys WITH SHOULDER BLADES WEAKNESS (shoulder wings) for lack of stetching after training.
The open-hand grip puts a lot of pressure on the carpal nerve and MAY cause pain and numbness.
Let's not forget that the pectoral muscles is composed of the great pectoral and the small pectoral lying underneath the great pectoral.Bench press is deal for overall chest workout but if you want to isollate the great pectoral, you should rather use free weights (fly cross over or cable cross-over) work for isolation or decline press where you use the gravity on top of the weight bench pressed.
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Jun 19, 2008 7:56 PM GMT
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Joe_M saidOpen-hand grip is called a suicide grip for a good reason, it is unsafe! iguanaSF said
Not to beat a dead horse, but I'll do it anyway, the assumption in your statement is that you're using it for bench presses. You can safely use open hand grip for a TON of other exercises (e.g. most all machines and cables, and a lot of dumbbell work). i've strayed far from the land of bar presses; I've always stood by the theory that freeweight lifting uses more accessory muscles, so I'm getting more done in the same period of time. then again; I'm not trying to gain mass. I've got some if anyone wants it. |
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Jun 21, 2008 9:54 AM GMT
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zi0nx5 saidNope. My gym only has ez bars with fixed plates. No long ones that can be adjusted. Lame. It's a university gym so you can't expect too much. |
