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Kosovo declared its independence today! and they have hot guys there!!

Do they recognize the civil rights of gays?

The news was saying that they are Muslims and want to separate from the christian run gov.

Kosovo is 90% albanian. There is the future possibility that Kosovo will unite with Albania.

Kosovo is saying that they will protect the rights of the minority serbian population.

So I was just wondering if somewhere in all their founding documents, they say that they will recognize gay rights too. I think most of western europe does that now.

Given the likelihood of recognition of Kosovo as an independent, sovereign state by most of Europe, North America, et al., it will be interesting to see how this devolution of Serbia establishes precedent for similar movements elsewhere (particularly the Basque region of Spain and France and the Scottish movement toward greater independence).

Applied on a larger scale, what may the recognition of Kosovo entail for the devolution / independence movements of Chechnya and Kurdistan?

As for Kosovo's recognition of LGBTQ human rights, I have no found any information as to whether Kosovo's independence seeks to recognize these rights.

Here are a couple of articles that discuss LGBTQ rights in relation to Kosovo:

FrontLine: LGBT activists in Serbia, Bosnia and Kosovo speak of their struggle for human rights

Wikipedia: LGBT rights in Serbia

tommy, I like how you have the uncanny ability to cut to the chase and recognize the significance of world events lol

tommysguns2000 saidKosovo declared its independence today! and they have hot guys there!!

no they dont they all live here!!!!!

the guy with the glasses looks cute.

I can smell a hot guy from over 3000 miles away, active.

I should redo my blog...Change it to "Hot guys in the news"

and as far as gay rights..u can tell these guys are gay. That one dude is wearing a scarf! and that really hot one in the front...his hand is way bigger than his face. doesn't that mean you're gay?

This is interesting...90% of Kosovians are Albanians and muslim.

During WWII...

"Albania is unique in that it is the only European country occupied by the Nazis that ended World War II with a larger Jewish population than before the War. The Albanian response to the Holocaust is especially notable because it was Europe's only largely Muslim country. Even so only a Jewish family of six was deported and killed during the Nazi occupation of Albania.[18] Not only did the Albanians protect their own Jews, but they provided refuge for Jews from neighboring countries. The Albanians refused to comply and hand over lists of Jews. Instead they provided the Jewish families with forged documents and helped them disperse in the Albanian population.[19]

In February 1944, when the Nazis descended upon the mountain hiding place, not a single Jew fell into their hands.[20] During the Holocaust, Albania was the only country in Europe that protected and sheltered its entire Jewish population, both native and foreign.[21] There was no history of ideological anti-Semitism in Albania so it was unique in this regard.[22] The small number of Jews in Albania also played a key role in the possibility to protect them all. During the Italian occupation, they were able to disperse and blend in with the general population. However, the role of the Albanian population as a whole in saving Jews is undeniable."

http://www.realjock.com/reply/107853/

tommysguns2000 saidand as far as gay rights..u can tell these guys are gay. That one dude is wearing a scarf! and that really hot one in the front...his hand is way bigger than his face. doesn't that mean you're gay?

Well I thought the scarf was because it was cold, but I am probably wrong since I don't have your uncanny gift. However, I did notice that Harry Potter (without his glasses) is next to the guy with the scarf .. that is gay by association. Also the guy in the scarf .. one of his hands is hidden in the proximity of Harry's rear end ..

Caslon:
I am originaly from Kosovo, and the citizens of Kosovo are 90% Albanians, but their religious preference is somewhat mixed, some of them are Catholics, and some of them are Muslims, yet they identify themselves as one nation, so by overcoming religious issues they only want to separate from Serbians and have their own country. The aspiration for their own country existed back from 1981 and they decided to make it happen after the 1999 war, where Serbs slaughtered many Albanians that lived in rural areas of Kosovo.
As for the gay rights, they are pretty conservative, because the only large city in Kosovo is Prishtina, and the rest of it is somewhat rural, so the gay issues are kind of taboo over there.

See?!? I told you Kosovo has hot guys...look at hunter..

I'd brave crazy war stuff and land mines and women in burkas to meet him.

(well, probably not the first two things, but the women in burkas can't be so bad, right?)

oh and active? You're remarkably good at this...

Hot perhaps, but I don't think I could date, fuck or be in relationship with a guy from a war torn, or in a country in political unrest. I'm happy the part it all where they achieved independence, but it's the part where they fight and kill in the name of all that is "good" that bothers me.

This new country of Kosovo is pretty close to Greece. I wonder if they've intermixed into a new nationality of stud muffin, or just a new killer who likes man ass?

Another thing, their flag looks a bit like the old Polish national flag. I wonder what the symbolism is in that?

Congrats to the Kosovars! I used to work as an attorney at the Int'l War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague, assigned to the Milosevic trial . . .

Serbian actions in trying to ethnically cleanse Kosovo have left the Serbs with no moral right to prevent the Kosovars from seceding from Serbia! In my humble opinion.

tommysguns2000 said(well, probably not the first two things, but the women in burkas can't be so bad, right?)

Well, In america when you put a bag over a woman's head, it is not a good sign

boiwunderkind:
Little newsflash- Kosovars aren't the ones who fight and KILL for what is as you say,*good*...
If you ever saw war footage on the TV, you'd see that Serbs were the ones that slaughtered millions of innocent people, not only on Kosovo, but also in Bosnia and Croatia, maybe 6 years before they decided to attack Kosovo, and why? For great Serbia, they would say. If you just look through the history Serbs were the ones initiating the wars, hell it was a Serbian guy who assasinated Franz Ferdinand and started World War I...okay I am getting too geeky

and tommysguns2000:
you wouldn't have to brave anything

It all boils down to religion, don't it?

Once these slavic people were one, Christians. Then turks came and converted some. And now, the Christians are slaughtering the 'muslim' Albanians claiming they're invaders when they probably share the same bloodline.

Also I once read an article about how someone basically drew the wrong boundaries. They assigned a lot of ethnically Albanian territory to Yugoslavia. I think.

Anyhow, the two headed eagle has always been the Albanian emblem. I think Poland has an eagle, but not with two heads.

And oh yeah, before I forget, damned_hunter, will you marry me? (ignore tommysguns he's my bodyguard) LOL

damned_hunter,

I'm not fond of war, it's victims or victimizers, and yes I'm clueless when it comes to European politics. I'm sorry I don't know the details behind what's going on in your part of the world, but nevertheless, I still feel the same way about dating guys who are subject to such injustices. A lot of people on here will patronize and play that they have a geniune interest, when they'll probably turn to the next political intrique and forget you thereafter.

I'm not going to bother to be your friend for the sake of heresay. Yes, I'm sorry I may have offended you by being so ignorant of the whole of your situation. But, as much as I'd like to sign another petition to help end another war in a country I know little or nothing about. I cannot.

I don't know if you noticed, but your words and my own may just fall on deaf ears, or only be subject to online bickering; which isn't too intelligent in of itself. I mean this very thread opened up with:

tommysguns2000 saidKosovo declared its independence today! and they have hot guys there!!

I don't know, is he more interested in the fact that guys were "hot!", or that a country actually gained it's freedom. I don't see those two issues having equal importance... do you?

Cute guys aside, Al Qaeda sent fighters to help Kosovo get indendence, so did President Clinton. I see this as a dangerous presedence.
Imagine if such a thing happened here in the US. What if resident Mexican Americans and illegal aliens began a guerrilla war here in the US to wrest the south western states and California from the United States?
Do you think that would be a problem? The same applies to Kosovo.
NATO had no business getting involved back in the 90s and it will come to haunt us in the future.

John, I don't think you can argue that a group of people do not deserve independence based on the groups that support them, rather the reasons they state for independence. I will admit that I am pretty ignorant as to the details behind this, but if America was ethnically cleansing California, then yes, I think California would have good reason to seek secession.

John43620Cute guys aside, Al Qaeda sent fighters to help Kosovo get indendence, so did President Clinton. I see this as a dangerous presedence.
Imagine if such a thing happened here in the US. What if resident Mexican Americans and illegal aliens began a guerrilla war here in the US to wrest the south western states and California from the United States?
Do you think that would be a problem? The same applies to Kosovo.
NATO had no business getting involved back in the 90s and it will come to haunt us in the future.

Who else would help them?

Does most Albanians being muslims make them ineligible for aid when obviously harassed by a much more powerful ethnic group?

It's precisely this thinking that promotes anti-Americanism. You all take it through the myopic American viewpoint.

America did nothing to help the mujahideen too, and look where that lead to - Taliban.

What you don't understand about the conflict in Bosnia is that the Albanians aren't like the Mexicans in the US. They lived all their lives on the territories which were only handed to Serbian control because the WWII superpowers were too preoccupied in their own dividing of the spoils to make sure if they were placing the right national boundaries. Kosovars aren't immigrants, most are simply slavs converted by the Turkish invasion in the past.

The country was theirs, in the first place. A better example you would have given is if the Native Americans decide to retake their homeland, which god knows they have every right to, given how much suffering they've had under the hands of the US government in the earlier centuries.

That said, you'd have let the Serbs continue slaughtering Albanians and other minorites simply for the reason that it may threaten your own security in the future?! WTF.

It's like back in World War I & II, the US was blissfully complacent while millions of jews were being slaughtered by Hitler. Only deciding to jump in when the Japs shoved it up their throats and a U-boat took a potshot at Lusitania.

Have you seen the mass graves?

Okay...
First thing, John43620:
You don't have a slightest idea what was going on on Kosovo, and your statement that Al Qaeda helped out Kosovars is just absurd. How is it possible that Al Qaeda AND Americans helped out Kosovo TOGETHER???
You should know, it was Serbian propaganda that depicted Kosovars as muslim terrorists, when everybody knows that there are catholic albanians on Kosovo as well...Even Tribunal of the Hague knows that...

And second:
Comparing Mexican Americans and illegal aliens with Albanians is just ridiculous...albanians are the ONLY true descendants of Ilirs, an ancient civilisation that used to live on Balkans...

Nope, your wrong. Everything was fine until the Albanian Kosovars invented the Kosovar Liberation Army (KLA) and started a guerrilla war against the Serbs. Like the cowards they are, they would go out and fight a little and then run back to their villages and hide among the "civilians". Since the "Civilians" are complicit with the guerrillas, they invite attack and deserved what they got. They had Al Qaeda right along side them too.
Although not a part of Kosovo, Sarajevo was Al Qaeda's main recruiting office, it may still be. The Albanian Mafia supports the KLA and Al Qaeda with trafficking in narcotics and sex slaves.
America's on the wrong side of this conflict. We should be helping the Serbs reclaim their territory, or just get out of the way.
The only reason we're in this mess in the first place is because of that idiot Bill Clinton wanting to divert attention away from Monica. You people claim the war in Iraq is illegal, but it isn't, the NATO involvment in the Balkans was a clear violation of the NATO charter. The US sent forces to bomb Serbia without Congressional approval. The Serbs are the enemy of our enemy, we should support them.

Don't you tell me I am wrong, by your post I can tell you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Guerrila war against the Serbs???WTF???
You must be crazy... What pisses me off the most is the fact that people like you come here and start arguing about things they are so ignorant about...And please cut the c**p with Al Qaeda thing...Al Qaeda has no place on Kosovo or Sarajevo...I'd suggest you do some reading and do watch some international news...DO YOU EVEN KNOW how much innocent peope have Serbs slaughtered on Kosovo, how many families were killed, women and little girls raped??? Americans have prevented Serbs from further killing, I don't see what's wrong with that,see the pic of that mass grave? Well, there are HUNDREDS of them...I don't think it's the Serbs burried in them...
You have absolutely no right in discussing about this, so you might as well stop with that BS of yours.

Sedative14 and damned_hunter, you're better off ignoring his rants. His assumptions in framing his arguments are so "out there" that they preempt any constructive conclusion to your discussion. At the time of conflict, there was media discussion about the possibility of Al-Qaeda involvement in the conflict; apparently, several websites (do note their agendas, as they are generally inherently not amenable to Kosovo) are trumpeting these rumored links.

Kosovo's movement toward independence has many influences:

• the ignition of confrontational ethnic identification in the Balkan region (as well as most of the world) with the late 1800s advent of nationalism


• the confrontational differences between Serbian Orthodox Christianity and Kosovo-Albanian Islam


• the dissolution of the Soviet Union


• the ethnic political plays of Slobodan Milosevic and his cohorts


• Serbian and Slavic authoritarianism


• the genocidal campaign engaged as part of Milosevic's ethnic politics


• the broader transnational devolution movement, as witnessed in Scotland, Quebec, the Basque region, Chechnya, the Kurdish regions, and more

Well thanks for the facts NickoftheNorth...I am well-aware of what happenned back on Kosovo, as I said I used to live there for 10 years, I witnessed the demonstrations of Serbians that promoted ethnical cleansing and Milosevic's political agenda...

What pisses me off is when some random guy comes and tells me I don't know what happenned there and argue with some presumptions that obviously have foundation in anti-muslim campaign , unscrupulously promoted by Serbians...

All I could notice in his statements is that...after all, it's all about religion, isn't it?

If I was going to argue about something, I'd make sure to know every possible information about the subject of discussion.

Just as I said, John43620 probably thinks all muslims are suicide bombers.

I'd hazard a guess, he'd vote republican.

Anyway, don't worry about him damned_hunter, LOL. We got a wedding to plan! j/k

Yeah, you're right sedative..oh I did some thinking on mango tree..it will work just fine

at least falling mangoes aren't as deadly as falling coconuts! LOL

I can't help but notice you're not from the region, sir.

I am not from that region...It's just that what happened there is very wrong and can create a very dangerous precedent.

You mean Serbians killing Albanians is not wrong? That Serbs should remain in control of a people they attempted to remove by genocide?

That's just like saying Hitler was right...

Albanians belong in Albania. They can take their crime and terrorism there.

Since Hitler was brought up, it's a fact, the Croats and the Albanian muslims supported the Nazis in World War two along with the Turks. It was the Serbs who fought the Nazis.
By the way, yes, I do vote Republican. I support America, I don't hate it like the Democrats do.

Okay..NAZIS were going to kill albanians...your statements are going beyond stupidity...

You know what, I am not going to bother anymore...you are sick man, go seek some professional help *sigh*

I guess an important thing to remember is this conflict is similar to the Israeli-Arab conflicts. A section of land where the world powers forced people out of their homes. In Israel it was the UK. Here it's the former communist government of Tito's now defunct state forcing people into ethnic containment areas.

Today many people just can't forgot the past. Serbs don't just feel it's part of their land, many of them feel it's the home that got taken away from them.

Nice one trance23...

There are still serbian minorities on Kosovo and nobody's forcing them out...

Don't get me wrong, but if they considered it their home, why would they start a war down there and kill thousands of innocent people?

I have a dear friend who is Serbian from Novi Sad, he was against the war, he was forced though into the army, but fortunately only did guard duty and not down into Kosovo. I could tell from him though that there was much prejudice from what he said were the opinions of the Serbs against the Kosovo people. The Serbs Hated Clinton because of his authorizing the bridge bombings and so on that ruined the Serbian economy. I am suspiscious of our Governments behind the scenes motives there in Kosovo. Our Government (the Bush Regime)I believe from my reading are more interested in gaining control over the areas around the Caspian Sea Basin to ensure our OIL interests there. John43620 ---- At your age, I'm suprised that you are not more disserning when it comes to the CONTROLING motives of THE BUSH NEOCONS, you seem the type to back whatever the BUSHIES do because they are repugnicans. This REGIME has done more damage to our world relations for their NEOCON MOTIVES than all the mistakes of all the presidents since World War Two put together. Surely you can see beyond the HUMANITARIAN "SMOKE SCREEN" they put up as the reason for their actions !!!! Our CIA/Government are who created the AlQuida, our CIA/Government created many of these problems in that part of the world to gain control for OIL interests. I'm appalled at your trying to tell this fine young man Damned_hunter what's going on in his own country.

Hey. I'm going to give my two cents now.

damned_hunter: You can't be more right than this guy. He knows the Balkans and no person here can contest that.

GIO80: Of course he's going to say Kosovo is Serbian.. He's from Spain. They don't recognize Kosovo's independence. I like the Spanish KFOR. They are good folks to work with on joint patrols.

John43620: Retarded. Too many poppers and glue. I'll chip in for a plane ticket to get this douche to Serbia so he can wave the American flag in front of the embassy in Belgrade. Natural selection and a Molotov Cocktail will take care of him.

tommysguns2000: Very astute observations of the men in Kosovo. I have noticed them as well.

The KLA/UCK did what any militia in America did when it was fighting for its independence. Kosovo Albanians will protect the Serbs because it is in their best interest to. The EU is coming and they are going to have to be on their best behavior if they want entry.

There will be social programs with Ahtissaari's plan and the parallel structures in the municipal government will enforce it with oversight by KFOR, UNMIK, and UNHCR. Not to mention the money coming in from NGO's who had kinda just had forgot about the place since the Iraq war. Thanks to Kosovo's declaration and the protests in Serbia, giving money to improve the social and economic infrastructure of Kosovo will be highlighted again.

Oh yeah. I'm acutely aware of what's happening in Kosovo right now because I'm there.

Jeff

Good Post Jeff !!! (whitenoise) Wish I could shake your hand and thank you for serving, I'm sure there are a lot more guys just like you serving. The area will be a success with guys like you !!! Stay Safe !!! Dennis

No problem! I love what I do and love doing it for those who appreciate it even more.

I just have one quote for people who want us to pull out of situations without seeing them to fruition or transfer to civil authority.

"The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit." Nelson Henderson

Thats my Yoda moment.

Jeff

Kosovar independence is a major victory for terrorists and organized crime. NATO and KFOR troops are fitting right in with european sex slave and narcotics traffickers.
America and NATO is on the wrong side of this conflict.

http://www.truthinmedia.org/truthinmedia/Bulletins2000/tim2000-5-6.html

http://www.kosovo.net/kla2.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/561291/posts

http://www.balkanpeace.org/index.php?index=article&articleid=11036

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1112681/posts

Whatever...

John43620: Does your house have windows? If that was your best S2/G2 analysis I'd fire your boss and restaff your intel operation. On the ground there is no basis for what you are saying. Religion does not drive things here like it does in other theaters. You will not see a Kosovo Albanian blowing himself up for Allah. The newest info you have is from 2004. Most open source news is invariably polarized twords either the KLA/UCK or the KOS so it maybe that you are just exposed to similar "fair and impartial" news sources.

Here is the disclaimer for one of the articles you provided a link for:

"This page is the work of voluntary work by several Serb Americans who have been supplying decani.yunet.com with regular information on the events related to Kosovo in the international press."

You got another one bub? Cuz you're treading water in my eyes.

Jeff

I don't understand why this Albanian guy far right is wearing the Arab kefiya?

wow, people still wringing this thread out... not that there wasn't some potential for in depth conversation, but from what I've read, the ignorant have progressed the ignorance... I'm sorry for what is going on overseas; though there's little I can do to honestly grasp it, comaring it to the worst times in my life I can imagine it's somewhere along those line to worse... but I'm noone to tell a foreign country what they should be doing, or what the facts are behind their news. I know America is a great country and all. It still has potential to do great things, nevertheless, we have no place telling other people in other countries what we believe to the truth behind their lives, and then enforce upon as though it were solid doctrine. Simple put, that's some fu*ked up sh*t. Like elder John90210, for example. He thinks so much of himself he'll babel on solely for the sake of arguement. Forget about knowing the facts first hand. He's more concerned about what he learned from the other ignorant rich upper class white americans, in a coffeeshop, with newspaper with half truths scripted across the headlines. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with this country... are so detached from reality that we disbelieve the truth, even from the lions mouth?

Trance23 saidI guess an important thing to remember is this conflict is similar to the Israeli-Arab conflicts. A section of land where the world powers forced people out of their homes. In Israel it was the UK. Here it's the former communist government of Tito's now defunct state forcing people into ethnic containment areas.

Today many people just can't forgot the past. Serbs don't just feel it's part of their land, many of them feel it's the home that got taken away from them.

In Israel it was Palestinian land, not UK.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7254434.stm

Well then how about the BBC? Is that a reliable source?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3686173.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/761183.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trafficking_in_human_beings

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/kosovo1/archindx.htm

PhxAriz08I don't understand why this Albanian guy far right is wearing the Arab kefiya?

In the same way you see muslim guys here in the Philippines wearing that, or the fez, or the white robes, Sikhs wearing turbans, Catholics wearing prayer shawls, etc. It's a mark of religion/ethnicity/etc.

Not a symbol of terrorism.

PhxAriz08
In Israel it was Palestinian land, not UK.

Trance23 meant that it was the UK who supported the zionist movement of Jewish refugees to what is now Israel (provided transport, armed forces etc.) in the same way NATO is supporting the Kosovars. I still don't know where I stand in the Israel-Palestinian situation.

The comparison is not that similar though, since most Israelis were not born in Palestine, but moved there, unlike the Albanians who were from the land originally anyway.

A better comparison would be the Kurds in Iran/Iraq (who I would've supported if they wanted autonomy, they had been subject to genocidal measures too, notably by Saddam). The Christians in East Timor, the Chechnya rebels, Basques in Spain/France, the Rom (Gypsies), the Irish, Scots, Welsh, the Laplanders, the Tibetans in China, and yes...

Native Americans.

John43620Well then how about the BBC? Is that a reliable source?

Whitenoise is IN Kosovo right now. Damned_hunter is Kosovar-Albanian.

And you, sir, are American in America reading the newspaper and watching conspiracy theories on TV.

John43620
Kosovar independence is a major victory for terrorists and organized crime. NATO and KFOR troops are fitting right in with european sex slave and narcotics traffickers.

If you're looking for sex slaves and narcotics traffickers, hell, most of the former USSR is like that, with Russia at the top. It's not a unique case in the region.

Prostitution always rises where there are occupying troops anyway. Also not unique (Vietnam, Philippines, Korea, etc?)

Why do you even PRETEND that that's what really matters to you. I'm sure you know it, and we know it too.

The thing that really gets to you is that NATO is helping a nation with a MUSLIM majority break away from a CHRISTIAN run nation.

I bet you didn't have that much problems with East Timor, huh?

Sedative14: Thanks for exposing his (John43620) faulty logic.

I'm honestly tired of rebuking this guy.

Anyone else want to throw something at him?

^ Are you Serbian or Albanian?

American

But I was assembled from Norwegian, French, Indian, and German parts.

You can be a little bit of all of those too... but only by injection.

very nicely assembled too. LOL

Did you know that David Hicks, the Australian Taliban got his start fighting for the KLA in Kosovo? Too bad they let him out of GITMO.

What confuses me about the Kosovo situation is why the Kosovar/Albanian nationalists decided to suddenly upset the status quo that was in place (which kept the peace with Serbia), and, why the U.S. and other major powers have recognized them as an independent entity

In the name of keeping a consistent policy... the United States, the United Kingdom, and other nations which have recognized Kosovo as independent would have to do the same if Bosnia's Republika Srpska (for example) would break away. FYI: That is the Serb-inhabited areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina, where Serbs make up about 40% of that country's population.

It also gets sticky with Chechnya, Kurdistan, Taiwan, and other places...

Ugh.

Sedative14 said[quote][cite]PhxAriz08[/cite]I don't understand why this Albanian guy far right is wearing the Arab kefiya?

In the same way you see muslim guys here in the Philippines wearing that, or the fez, or the white robes, Sikhs wearing turbans, Catholics wearing prayer shawls, etc. It's a mark of religion/ethnicity/etc.

Not a symbol of terrorism.[/quote]

Well... Fez is a Turkish hat. Many Arab and the Balkan people wear it because we were under the Ottoman Empire. The Keffiyeh is an Arab headdress and it is an Arab culture. It have nothing to do with religion. This guy with Albanian flag might be an Arab or he might be a Palestinian supporter?



even this old Palestinian man

Hmm... I dunno I've seen muslim guys here wear the Kefiyah, the fez, and that skullcap. Most of them are those who had been to the Hajj. Maybe he had gone on the pilgrimage and brought that as a souvenir? LOL

Sedative14 saidHmm... I dunno I've seen muslim guys here wear the Kefiyah, the fez, and that skullcap. Most of them are those who had been to the Hajj. Maybe he had gone on the pilgrimage and brought that as a souvenir? LOL

lol... I have many kefiyah and I am a Palestinian Christian. I really look good with my kefiyah

LOL yeah.

Real life dad, if you want something from behind the scenes I suggest you research the "Trepka Mines".
American involement in the Balkans was a clear violation of the NATO charter and American attacks against the Serbs was a violation of the Constitution.
Our Congress did not know of our air attacks until they watched in on television. It was not authorized by the Congress. At least the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have that.

John43620 saidCute guys aside, Al Qaeda sent fighters to help Kosovo get indendence, so did President Clinton. I see this as a dangerous presedence.
Imagine if such a thing happened here in the US. What if resident Mexican Americans and illegal aliens began a guerrilla war here in the US to wrest the south western states and California from the United States?
Do you think that would be a problem? The same applies to Kosovo.
NATO had no business getting involved back in the 90s and it will come to haunt us in the future.

Oh of course, because it was a CLINTON policy. Good Republibots hate all things Clinton.

Do your knees jerk even while you're sleeping?

This thread still running? geez...
John43620, I see you still haven't sought professional help ( or maybe they turned you down after they have seen with what sort of nutcase they have to deal with)

Kosovo will be a muslim state and you know what muslims do to us queers. I suggest you guys supporting Kosovar Independence go cruising in Pristina. I hear the guys are really hot. Check it out and report back to us. If you get back.

The fact that you call yourself a *queer* tells me alot about your self acceptance. Yet I never met a *queer* with such orthodox views. Yeah, you should go for a walk in Pristina, they have some nice gay clubs. I know, I've been there, and here I am now, ALIVE.

damned _hunter, perhaps I'm wrong. Please forgive me. What is it like in Kosovo? Are you a Kosovar Albanian? What's that like? Are you in the military?
If so, what's that like? Do you have many non-NATO international visitors? If so, where do they come from usually? Please help me understand what it is like there.

A wise man I once worked told me, after I continuely asked the floor manager at the restaurant if I was in trouble for being late; though he didn't notice in the first place; that I should, "let dead dogs lye".

If that didn't mean anything to John90210, than howabout, "you're 'flogging a dead horse'", or "let sleeping dogs lie"...

But at least I can see that you've actually taken an interest in the advice the young, wise and cute damned_hunter has given you, so there's hope for you yet... I Hope!

A wise man I once worked told me, after I continuely asked the floor manager at the restaurant if I was in trouble for being late; though he didn't notice in the first place; that I should, "let dead dogs lye".

If that didn't mean anything to John90210, than howabout, "you're 'flogging a dead horse'", or "let sleeping dogs lie"...

But at least I can see that you've actually taken an interest in the advice the young, wise and cute damned_hunter has given you, so there's hope for you yet... I Hope!

A wise man I once worked told me, after I continuely asked the floor manager at the restaurant if I was in trouble for being late; though he didn't notice in the first place; that I should, "let dead dogs lye".

If that didn't mean anything to John90210, than howabout, "you're 'flogging a dead horse'", or "let sleeping dogs lie"...

But at least I can see that you've actually taken an interest in the advice the young, wise and cute damned_hunter has given you, so there's hope for you yet... I Hope!

Maybe I wasn't wrong.

The problem isn't Islam. If Republicans succeed in making the Church and the State one and the same, I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out a lot like Iran.

The United Christian States of America would just be as homophobic.

And I was right... you hate Kosovo simply because it's Muslim.

How about Ireland? I'm pretty sure they trained Fennians.

Anyway. Dead dogs...

lol ok i'll try to keep this moderate...*ahem* lol keep in mind this is just the view of a 21 year old history student...so here goes.

i don't think religion is a large issue in Kosovo (and correct me if i'm wrong, hunter)

the larger divide is the issue of what is "Serbian" history and how that is accuratly reflected on a modern map, and how Serbia is adjusting its self image after the conclusion of the Cold War. There are presences and influences of Serbian history over almost all of former Yugoslavia. However, the Battle of Kosovo was the origin of the idea of a Serbian people or at least their national conciousess as such...
Needless to say, Serbia has continually been unable to address the political views and desires of the Albanian people-who are not viewed as Serbian nor do they view themselves as Serbian. This has made Serbian control of Kosovo a minority rule issue and as shown by the 1990s, one dangerously open to abuse by demgagogues and nationalists.

I completely support Kosovo's independence in that Russia and Serbia, in most of the talks, have taken significantly more hard-line stances than Kosovo and the itnereim peacekeepers. Most power-sharing agreements have failed and I think that there is no longer any viable way of including the Albanian Kosovars in the Serbian political system as it has become so far right-wing as to make any concessions unviable.

Nick, I think that Chechnya would have to become much much healthier than it is now to consider independence. Needless to say this is the exact fear and reason why Russian support for Serbia has taken the form it has-Russian interests across the Far East and Caucaus mountains would be in legal, if not actual, jeopardy.
However, it would take a monstrous overhaul of Chechyan politics to be able to do that-the current Russophilic regime is hardly democratic and is in almost complete control of the miltiary and public sector. Opposition movements are hardly likely to be found unless you look to the Radical Islamist fighters who are beginning to show up. John made some references to them, but it should be noted that in Chechnya radical islam is only present due to the complete and utter hegemony Russia has created in everyday life in Chechnya...and I certainly don't think that there is any room for their rheatoric in the Balkans currently.

Kurdistan currently (in Iraq) is a little too comfy to decide for such measures...whilst that is a (in my opinion remote) possibility in the future it would again take a significant change from now.

It would have to involve a network of co-operation and conciousness across the Iran-Iraq-Turkey triangle, as well as the coherent expression of a political view and philosophy. However, right now all of that can be found inside Iraq, where the Vice President is a Kurd and Kurdistan remains one the most stable portion of Iraq, even including Kirkuk.


hahaha and i was in scotland last semester for school...lots of the people (at least the ones my age) could not picture Scotland independent. England and Scotland are so closely integrated and have found enough leeway for identity and expression of cultural differences....that's what Rugby and Football are for lol.

lol and to bring this back on topic, tommy, i like the second guy from the left....lol.

Here in the United States we have this phenomenon called "Political Correctness". It's a lot like "Blasphemy" in religion where it's forbidden to comment on, or address a subject. No matter what, the
accepted Politically Correct version isn't to be challenged, ever.
On pain of being labeled a racist for being an apostate of Political correctness, I will now carry on.
islam isn't just a religion, it's a social, political and economic system. It is the antithesis of modern western systems. At it's core, it depends on the complete faith in a mythical supernatural being by it's membership, any who waiver are eliminated if found out to be an apostate, because control by violence is at the core of islam. It's a lot like the government of the Peoples Republic of China, just on a much larger scale. Islam on the other hand is fragmented into hundreds of different "interpretations". The PRC is quite consolodated.
So, any "Religion" that; calls for the death of a cartoon artist for criticizing the religion and gets an outpouring of millions, calls for the execution of a missionary school teacher for naming a Teddy Bear Mohammed again by the millions, calls for the death of a guy who writes a book like "Satanic Verses", and cheers on terrorist bombings from Bali to New York City is to me, a religion of rabid dogs.
You may say, "well that's only a few of them, hardly enough to call the whole bunch rotten". Perhaps but there's no demonstrable counter to this among "the Good muslims". All you get is "well what about Israel?" Israel is a modern liberal state, in other words, NORMAL. Of course we support Israel.
Here in the United States, some of our Christian religious sects like the Fred Phelps bunch may say horrible things about us queers, but they don't kill and torture us in a manner sanctioned by the state as they do in muslim countries.
So now my rants prove to you all that I'm a racist and a blasphemer to political correctness. Go ahead and trust the muslims. When they deny what I've told you, and tell you that islam is a peaceful religion, they use a technique called Tareeka. If they controlled the state, they'd be killing us in the LGBT community.

I'm f*cking sick of people using the term "muslim" or "islam" as if the terms themselves are inherently bad. Proclaiming something or someone as Muslim does not make a point. We all know damned well that there are kind, rational, peaceful, moderate followers of Islam. It just proves how we love to be bigoted when popular culture gives us permission. Blacks for a century after slavery, Asians during WWII, liberals during the Bush years, etc.

Bringing the point closer to home, it's similar to when a 13 year old says "that's gay" and thinks he made a point about how bad something is. But of course when something is characterized as gay it is not bad.

All these ignorant folks need to change the discussion from "Muslims Bad" to "Religious Extremists Bad". After all, wasn't it a Christian that terrorized Oklahoma City in '95, killing hundreds?

Smarten up.

To some of us, muslim, islam IS bad. As bad as christian, jew, buddhist, hindu, wiccan, scientologist, moonie, hari krishna, satanist ...

True dat. Those may just be total lost causes, or in the very least, thousands of dollars and hours of therapy.

Sorry, rugger, you lost me there. Are you saying people who think religion is bad are lost causes?

Well McGay, I guess you caught me in an absolute statement that I may regret making.

I think my point is that probably 95% of folks identify with one form of spirituality or another. So when someone says any form of spirituality is bad (especially when like minded folks organize it and give it a name, making it a religion) they might very well be decades or centuries ahead of their time. But in the here and now, they're probably not getting along with too many folks. Thus the "lost cause" assertion.

I took this off-topic though. Chastizing a whole community over the errors of a few really burns me.

to answer the question as to whether or not they recognize lgbt equality:

their initial draft for their constitution was criticized by the catholic church there because it didn't specify marriage between a man and a woman and because it would have extended protections specificially to lgbt people. as for further drafts, i don't know, but from the outset they are trying to comply with e.u. standards so that they can be included in the larger european economic bloc.

john43620, have you met a Muslim before?

***Did you know: that 'both Jewish and Islamic traditions consider Ishmael as the ancestor of Arab people.' 'Judaism maintains that Isaac (the father of the Jewish people), rather than Ishmael, was the true heir of Abraham.'

It's this sole fact that divided and created two of the largest relgions in the world. Crazy how one simple disagreement amongst family could affect the rest of the world (oversimplified of course).***

Yes I've met muslims before, a hell of a lot of them. I know quite a bit about them. They're torn and in a transition. On the one hand they're totally wowed by the modern world and like it. On the other hand, they're bound by the old ways. muslims have issues, with us and within themselves. I just don't want to see western civilization destroyed while they work it out.
As mean as it may sound, I think the Bush administration has given muslims a real boost. It came to me when I was watching "Farenheit 9/11". A muslim woman was standing in the rubble calling for allah to expel the Americans. That isn't lost on the muslims, allah never came.
People who are muslim today may not be in the future. I know many of them to be very intelligent. Like the ways they take to modern technology, they will eventually take to modern political, economic and social philosophy which is the root of the technology, and a better way of life.
So don't even try to paint me as a racist.

Just letting you guys know I am a Palestinian Orthodox Christian and what you guys are saying about Islam or Kosovo are plain ignorant. Not everybody are Muslims in Kosovo! I have Orthodox Christian friends who happen to be Kosovar Albanians. They go to Church every Sunday and talk about the conflict and they never talk about Muslims in Kosovo. They talk about the Serbian and how they treat them. So this conflict has NOTHING to do with Islam or Christianity in Kosovo. This conflict is about Serbian and Albanian want their lands. This conflict is similar to the Palestinian-Israeli war. This is funny many Americans view Palestinian as Muslims and Israeli as Jews. STUPID... Half of the populations of Palestinians are CHRISTIANS. STOP WATCHING FOX NEWS.

And stop with your hatred against Muslim people.

kidcourageous1348 said***Did you know: that 'both Jewish and Islamic traditions consider Ishmael as the ancestor of Arab people.' 'Judaism maintains that Isaac (the father of the Jewish people), rather than Ishmael, was the true heir of Abraham.'

It's this sole fact that divided and created two of the largest relgions in the world. Crazy how one simple disagreement amongst family could affect the rest of the world (oversimplified of course).***

Did you know that the Holy Land is home to over 900,000 Christians, many of whom are descendant of the first Christians? Palestinian Christians are the descendants of the original indigenous Christians who first believed in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Have you ever wondered what happened to the descendants of the disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ and the descendants of other Jews, Philistines, Canaanites, Greeks, Arabs, Romans, and Samaritans... Who accepted the Messiah when He was with them in the flesh? Today, their direct descendants number around a million. These are the Palestinian Christians who still maintain the faith and tradition.

There is no such thing called "Ishmael for Arab and Issac for Jews. Arabs are found in many religion (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.) Jews are found in many different ethnicities.

hmm...i'll say this sincerely that i am not trying to paint anyone as a racist. lol i don't like paint.

Which is why I maintain the belief that Religion is evil. LOL. See just how easily John43620 connects a religion that has a lot more followers than Christianity with all the things going wrong in HIS part of the world. How convenient.

And yep I was aware that PhxAriz08 was Christian. There were Christians, Muslims, AND Jews in Palestine long before Israel. Even Lebanon has a significant percentage of Christians. Oh and also Ethiopia which have far older churches than Europe.

John43620, I really don't know what your problem is. But, I can say no wonder why America is getting bashed a lot more these days.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080324/wl_asia_afp/australiaindonesiaattacksbashir_080324021340

Sedative, Check it out dude.

Why do muslims deserve a free pass from criticism? It isn't helping them into modernity.

"Moderate muslims" in Saudi Arabia sentence two gay men to 7,000 lashes each, for being gay.

"Radical Shia muslims" in Iran hang two boys for being gay. They also bury two lesbians up to their necks and stone them to death.

A Danish cartoonist draws a cartoon critical of Mohammed and muslims call for killing the guy.

A missionary teacher allows school children in Africa to name a teddy bear Mohammed and the muslim community demands her head be cut off.

Then we have decades of terrorism.

Just to name a few of the thousands of instances of muslim barbarity.

Doesn't that deserve criticism?

I do agree with you on one aspect though, I am guilty of violating political correctness.

Since I'm discussing barbarity, I suggest you check out the Tiannenman square massacre. I think you'll find it very interesting. I'm critical of that too.

John,

CUT THE CRAP ALREADY!

Your ignorance entertained me at first, but now I find it annoying. Is it just me, or you're giving the radical examples of Muslims that still live in strictly conservative areas of the world? How about giving the examples of Muslims living in the urban area, such as Sarajevo, which has all major religions in it with every religion's sacral objects? At the same time you can hear the bells of churches and ezan (muslim's call for a prayer).
And since you are so stuck with the picture of Muhammed, I am just wondering how would you bushies react if it was the picture of Jesus Christ? And since we're talking about criticizm what do you have to say about medieval ages? Or perhaps witch hunts and burning thousands of innocent people? Is that justified?

Religion is something personal, you know, a special bond between you and God, not a screen for your own latent agendas.

By this, I don't want to offend any other member of this site, I respect everyone's views and religious aspiration.

John,

CUT THE CRAP ALREADY!

Your ignorance entertained me at first, but now I find it annoying. Is it just me, or you're giving the radical examples of Muslims that still live in strictly conservative areas of the world? How about giving the examples of Muslims living in the urban area, such as Sarajevo, which has all major religions in it with every religion's sacral objects? At the same time you can hear the bells of churches and ezan (muslim's call for a prayer).
And since you are so stuck with the picture of Muhammed, I am just wondering how would you bushies react if it was the picture of Jesus Christ? And since we're talking about criticizm what do you have to say about medieval ages? Or perhaps witch hunts and burning thousands of innocent people? Is that justified?

Religion is something personal, you know, a special bond between you and God, not a screen for your own latent agendas.

By this, I don't want to offend any other member of this site, I respect everyone's views and religious aspiration.

Dear John,

The village idiots make more noise than the wise men, and that applies to the over 1.5 billion Muslims (also known as "rabid dogs" in the language you prefer to use) existing in the world who you have ferociously generalized. They are not leaving any time soon to the chagrin of many including yourself.

There is absolutely no denial of the many issues found in the Muslim world, I'll be the first to list the criticisms. However you have failed to make the connection between the independence of a long-oppressed nation of people who just happen to be mostly Muslim and the doings of the overzealous in other parts of the world.

Nobody is painting you as a racist, you just seem determined to remove all doubt.

Barbarically yours,

onmyway

ps The "Muslim community" (an adequate label since they're all clones who think the same way, are collectively polarized, and aren't spread out all over the world with their own individual cultures, lifestyles, educations, social cognitive processing /end sarcasm) found the Sudanese reaction to the teddy bear as painfully ignorant and embarrassing, a joke that was forwarded as email/phone text/facebook messages in the form of Mohamad the travelling teddy bear. Would you like me to forward it to you or is it too hard to believe that those rapid dogs can also have a sense of humor?

PhxAriz08, Ricky Martin has also worn a keffiyeh (he visited some Jordanian and Palestinian kids in Amman a few years back).





So you're not the only gay man who has worn it *wink wink nudge nudge*

PhxAriz08 said

I don't understand why this Albanian guy far right is wearing the Arab kefiya?

they dont have to be arabs to wear it. I know many people who wear it to show support, or simply a fashion statement. I have never worn one and I am an Arab Muslim

damned_hunter saidJohn,

CUT THE CRAP ALREADY!

Your ignorance entertained me at first, but now I find it annoying. Is it just me, or you're giving the radical examples of Muslims that still live in strictly conservative areas of the world? How about giving the examples of Muslims living in the urban area, such as Sarajevo, which has all major religions in it with every religion's sacral objects? At the same time you can hear the bells of churches and ezan (muslim's call for a prayer).
And since you are so stuck with the picture of Muhammed, I am just wondering how would you bushies react if it was the picture of Jesus Christ? And since we're talking about criticizm what do you have to say about medieval ages? Or perhaps witch hunts and burning thousands of innocent people? Is that justified?

Religion is something personal, you know, a special bond between you and God, not a screen for your own latent agendas.

By this, I don't want to offend any other member of this site, I respect everyone's views and religious aspiration.

very well said

OK, then check these out;

http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2370031

http://www.inhomelandsecurity.com/alqaeda/

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002936760_balkans18.html

http://prisonplanet.com/us_supported_al_qaeda_cells_during_balkan_wars.html

The above links and the fact that David Hicks, the "Australian Taliban" got his start with the KLA back my position.

And in western Europe; http://www.metroweekly.com/gauge/commentary.php?ak=2076

or

http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2007/09/11/4

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-09-10-ex-muslims-europe_N.htm

Fred Phelps is mild compared to islam. So I'll ask it again, why does islam deserve a free pass?